| Author |
 Topic  |
|
RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2005 : 08:52:44 AM
|
We've all seen science fiction movies and TV shows where the situation appears hopeless (or the ship is under alien control), and the only option for our heroes is to activate the self-destruct sequence. It's been a given in the field for so long that it never even occurred to me ask the following question.
Do any manned armed forces (or exploratory) vehicles have a self-destruct mechanism? Here, in the present day, in real life? Have there ever been ships or planes or tanks in the past that can be blown up (intentionally) by the crew?
My recollection is that some early unmanned test missles had this--but then again, I may be remembering old movies.
I know there are lots of folks here who have extensive knowledge of the military and military matters. If my curiousity can be satisfied, I would be most grateful.... |
|
|
MikeC
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:34:52 AM
|
Well, I'm no expert, but:
There are protocols for the destruction of
classified materials (burning code books,
putting orders & such into special bags to
be tossed overboard, etc.) in any military
operation where there is a possibility that
they might fall into enemy hands.
The U2 spyplanes had destruct charges, even
though the conventional wisdom prior to the
Gary Powers incident was that they flew too
high to be shot down and that if they suffered
a mishap they'd break up due to aerodynamic
stresses. Obviously, conventional wisdom
was wrong, since his plane was shot down by
a SAM, the G-forces of his tumbling plane
prevented him from reaching the destruct
switch and the crash didn't destroy much
of the plane.
It is, therefore, reasonable to assume
that the SR-71 had similar provisions for
self-destruction.
I also want to say that the USS PUEBLO,
the spy ship captured by the North Koreans
back in '68, had scuttling charges but
the NoKo's suprised them before they
could be set. I do know that the USS
HALIBUT and other US spy subs had them
as well (read BLIND MAN'S BLUFF for lots
of cool details on US submarine spy
operations during the Cold War.
Great stuff, better by far than any
Tom Clancy book).
MikeC |
 |
|
|
John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:52:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
My recollection is that some early unmanned test missles had this--but then again, I may be remembering old movies.
This is true; and to this day, unmanned rockets are often equipped with a self-destruct mechanism. This is (unfortunately) called a "Range Safety Device." If the rocket goes severely off course or control is lost, Range Safety is used to blow the rocket into small pieces which will do less damage when they hit the ground. From that, it's not entirely unreasonable that an SF spacecraft might be equipped with something like that, used to prevent a ship from hitting a city from orbit, or something similar.
It seems likely that some unmanned vehicles, especially reconaissance drones, may also be equipped with such a device in real life to prevent their being captured and examined by the enemy. The danger of such a system is, of course, that it might go off accidentally.
That said, it seems very reasonable that any good ship's engineer could blow up or destroy their ship intentionally, simply because there's so much energy in a ship's systems that it could easily destroy the ship itself. Why build a special system to destroy a plane when the pilot can crash it easily enough?
A warship, for instance, almost certainly carries enough explosives in its own magazine to sink itself; this has happened, accidentally, several times. The Soviet ballistic missile submarine K-219 was deliberately sunk by the commander by sabotaging a torpedo tube (yes, just like in Ice Station Zebra), not by triggering some specialized self-destruct mechanism.
Still, self-destruct mechanisms serve as a nice bit of shorthand -- would it really be better to have Scotty explain that he's rigged all the warheads in the photon torpedo bay to go off, instead of just saying "Self-destruct system activated?"
Note Mike C and I posted at almost the same time; I'd like to emphasize that I agree with his points, although I hadn't heard that the U-2 or spook subs were equipped with self destruct systems.
----------
We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
Edited by - John Nowak on 11/10/2005 09:57:52 AM |
|
|
|
RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 10:54:48 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
Still, self-destruct mechanisms serve as a nice bit of shorthand -- would it really be better to have Scotty explain that he's rigged all the warheads in the photon torpedo bay to go off, instead of just saying "Self-destruct system activated?"
Of course, one of the points of the self-destruct system is that it can be over-ridden or cancelled, which is usually what happens in these movies (all but one time on Star Trek). Setting the photon torpedoes to go off seems like there wouldn't be much wiggle room if the crew was "...just kidding!"
Many thanks to both MikeC and John Nowak. I knew the folks on the Jabootu board knew everything.
BTW, I assumed that most self-destruct systems weren't separate, independent explosive systems on the ship, I imagined they were like the ones in Ridley Scott's Alien, which shuts off the coolant system (this is the movie that sparked my question). Thanks to MikeC for broadening my horizons on this.
|
|
|
|
dmilroy
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
281 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 11:49:22 AM
|
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but whenever the subject of self-destruct systems comes up I can’t help but remember the game Star Fleet Battles. In the portion of the rules where they detail how self destruct works and how to calculate the collateral damage done to near by units they make the explicit statement : 'Self-destruct is a last ditch attempt to prevent a ship from being captured by the enemy. It is NOT a tactical maneuver.'.
Guess no one ever told that to Kirk/Picard/et al.
~D ( former captain of the USS FrontTowardEnemy )
|
|
|
|
governor_breck
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 1:14:22 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dmilroy
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but whenever the subject of self-destruct systems comes up I can’t help but remember the game Star Fleet Battles. In the portion of the rules where they detail how self destruct works and how to calculate the collateral damage done to near by units they make the explicit statement : 'Self-destruct is a last ditch attempt to prevent a ship from being captured by the enemy. It is NOT a tactical maneuver.'.
Guess no one ever told that to Kirk/Picard/et al.
~D ( former captain of the USS FrontTowardEnemy )
I always thought it was interesting that Starfleet starships are naturally going to tend towards blowing up. It's only the magnetic field in the warp core that prevents it. All you have to do to blow up a warp drive vessel is turn off that field. Contrast that to a non-nuclear vessel of the 20th century, the USS Missouri for example. You can leave the Big Mo sitting there powered down until doomsday and it won't do anything. Maybe it will sink once the hull rusts out. But that's about it. |
|
|
|
Ubiq
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 1:45:51 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by governor_breck
All you have to do to blow up a warp drive vessel is turn off that field.
From what I've seen from the various Trek shows, a warp core makes a wineglass look sturdy by comparison. You'd think an interstellar society could find a propulsion system that wouldn't by in danger of exploding whenever the ship recieves damage.
An origami crane is probably more spaceworthy than your average Star Trek starship.
BM: I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I solve my problems with violence. |
|
|
|
Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 2:42:03 PM
|
A lot of real life "Self destruct" is , indeed, just useing the explosives on board. Tankers in WW2 would do it, if they had time , a can of gas, and a flare.
Some Tanks, like the Sherman, would blow up or burn real good, just on getting hit. Let alone the crew doing it themselves.
Most of the time, though, they would just dump the breech blocks for the main gun, and hide the coil or what ever, to the engin.
The Russians had a button in the MIG-25 Foxbat, that the pilots were to push if the plane was ever going to crash in enemy territory.
The pilots, being smarter then they looked, figgered the button would just blow them up with the "Secretski" equipment the plane carried.
And some people wonder why the Russians got tired of communisim....
"Reality is arguable...lunch time is not." H. Flangepart.
"One Weekend a month my ass!" Crow- The Beginning of the End.
|
|
|
|
John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 2:45:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
Setting the photon torpedoes to go off seems like there wouldn't be much wiggle room if the crew was "...just kidding!"
Depends on how the scene's written, I think.
KIRK: Scotty, you know how you're about to set off the photon torpedoes?
SCOTTY: Aye, captain, I've just got to push this--
KIRK: Don't do that.
SCOTTY: ...
SCOTTY: Aye captain.
KIRK: Scotty, is something wrong?
SCOTTY: It's just that you didna let me finish my sentence.
KIRK: I'm sorry I interrupted. That was a little insensitive of me.
SCOTTY: It's all right, sir. I suppose you were feeling stressed.
KIRK: Yes, but I shouldn't have teken it out on you.
KIRK: Tell you what -- come on up to the bridge, and I'll give you a Zagnut bar and a big hug.
SCOTTY: Thanks, sir. That would make it all better.
----------
We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
|
|
|
Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 3:04:28 PM
|
Other Real Life Self-destructs:
Anti-Aircraft shells had a time fuse that was set AND an automatic fuse that (Hopefully) set it off before it fell to the ground.
A steam engine could "blow up real good" if the water level was too low. Pieces from some engines were reported to fall several hundred yards away!
The "Weary Willies" (Old bombers made into flying bombs) were manned untill they crossed the English Channel. The pilot then set the electronic fuses and bailed out. Sometimes they went off after that.
Spys really were given rubber-coated cyanide pills in case of capture. Biteing the pill broke through the rubber and let the poison out. It's reported that most spys threw them away.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
|
|
|
RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 12:25:52 PM
|
Again, many thanks for the treasure trove of information. But blowing up unmanned things doesn't have the same sort of resonance as a crew having to decide whether it's necessary for them to die, that there's no other way out. Similarly, accidental detonation is just that, an accident.
Of course, in order to do any good, self-destruct would have to be done within a certain time frame. I seem to recall an old episode of Next Generation where the Enterprise was trapped in some null dimension by a super-creature called Nagilum, and Picard set the self-destruct...but it was going to go off in several hours. Maybe the timing can be set, but really, anything over five minutes is just bluster, yes? An hour would give an invading force time to download computer files, seize hostages and perhaps even reverse the self-destruct sequence. |
|
|
|
Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 12:43:40 PM
|
The most famous self-destruction of the Civil War was the Merrimack(C.S.S. Virginia, to you Southerners). When the Union started to make their push on Norfolk, the commanders on the Merrimack were trapped because of the huge draft of the ship, high winds on the waters and Union forts and ships aching for an opertunity to blow them out of the water. So they laid powder trails and turpentine all over the Merrimack and set her afire. An hour after the inferno was started, the ship blew up.
German U-boats had 14 five pound scuttling charges permanently afixed to their hulls throughout their boats. They all ran to a timer that only the officers knew about and had access to. It was the duty of the Chief Engineer to set the timer before he abandoned ship. The captured U-505 engineer failed in his task because he thought the ship was already sinking and didn't set the timer. I believe the timer was set in a little box that required a key to open and close. If that doesn't give you a movie scene in mind's eye, nothing will.
|
|
|
|
Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 12:58:08 PM
|
My favorite self-destruction scenes:
Alien.
It was a really tense moment when Ripley activated the system and then needed to go back to stop it because the Alien was blocking her escape. "The option to override automatic detontation proceedure has now EXPIRED"
Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock.
I loved it when the Klingon boarding party makes their way to the bridge. They're confused as to why nobody is aboard. When the leader of the boarding party holds his communiator next to a talking control panel, the Klingon captain realizes what's happening and screams "GET OUT". Then BOOM!
|
|
|
|
RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 4:20:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
My favorite self-destruction scenes:
Alien.
It was a really tense moment when Ripley activated the system and then needed to go back to stop it because the Alien was blocking her escape. "The option to override automatic detontation proceedure has now EXPIRED"
Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock.
I loved it when the Klingon boarding party makes their way to the bridge. They're confused as to why nobody is aboard. When the leader of the boarding party holds his communiator next to a talking control panel, the Klingon captain realizes what's happening and screams "GET OUT". Then BOOM!
I would agree that both of those are great scenes. The Star Trek one really resonated with me the first time I saw it. I'd seen that so many times on the TV show, where they'd start the sequence and then stop it just in time, I figured they'd do the same.
When the Enterprise blew up, it was literally like being punched in the stomach. I grew up with that ship, and now it was gone. |
|
|
|
John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 10:08:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
The most famous self-destruction of the Civil War was the Merrimack(C.S.S. Virginia, to you Southerners).
Personally, I'd call that more like destroying material -- not really a classic self-destruct.
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
German U-boats had 14 five pound scuttling charges permanently afixed to their hulls throughout their boats...
Yeah, the U-Boats carried the Enigma coding machines, which were also designed to dissolve in salt water, IIRC.
----------
We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
|
|
|
Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 11:00:08 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Nemo
My favorite self-destruction scenes:
Alien.
It was a really tense moment when Ripley activated the system and then needed to go back to stop it because the Alien was blocking her escape. "The option to override automatic detontation proceedure has now EXPIRED"
Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock.
I loved it when the Klingon boarding party makes their way to the bridge. They're confused as to why nobody is aboard. When the leader of the boarding party holds his communiator next to a talking control panel, the Klingon captain realizes what's happening and screams "GET OUT". Then BOOM!
I would agree that both of those are great scenes. The Star Trek one really resonated with me the first time I saw it. I'd seen that so many times on the TV show, where they'd start the sequence and then stop it just in time, I figured they'd do the same.
When the Enterprise blew up, it was literally like being punched in the stomach. I grew up with that ship, and now it was gone.
Man, i felt the same way. I still think the Enterprise class, of all the versions, is the best. I realy missed the old girl.
"Reality is arguable...lunch time is not." H. Flangepart.
"One Weekend a month my ass!" Crow- The Beginning of the End.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Forum Locked
Topic Locked