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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:55:41 AM
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Yes, I know this is supposed to be a movie site where everyone can escape the real life horrors of the outside world. However, like many of the horror films that this real life tragedy has unfortunately emulated - it just never fails to amaze me. So many people seem to be searching for some sociological reason for this person's actions. But after reading some of his writings and seeing him on video - it's just too clear (at least for me). A sociopath is simply that - a sociopath. An outburst of serious violence could have been predicted a long time ago. His classmates, etc. had nothing to do with it.
Sorry for the interruption...
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 3:02:23 PM
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Aside from the rants against America, the excerpts that I heard were pretty much the Liberal complaint: (quote) "You rich white boys have you vodka and Cognac but it's not enough!" (Remember Segal's famous rant in On Deadly Ground? "How much is enough?") Liberals always whine about how much OTHER people have and how THEY should have some.
Ironicaly, the parents of this murdering j***w*d worked hard to come to America where they made a mild sucess of themselves and sent their son to college.
What an ungratefull hypocrit.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 3:54:13 PM
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A political commentator recently wrote that tragedies like this are usually followed by a perceived need to "do something about it".
By this, they mean that government should do something about it. Pass some new laws, etc.
He is so right about this that it sounded strange even to me when he suggested that we shouldn't "do" anything about this. We bury the dead, mourn, then get back to life.
Because in this big, bad Universe, these sorts of things happen. And government usually overregulates and mismanages the things it involves itself in anyway. For example, Virginia struck down a proposal in January to allow qualified students to carry their concealed weapons on campus. I read a quote from a Virginia Tech spokesman when the proposal was shot down who said that parents, students, and faculty could all feel safer now that liscensed, legal concealed carry wasn't going to be allowed on state school grounds.
If Virginia Tech is anything like Ohio State, where I just graduated from, there are probably a lot of veterans, Guardsmen and Reservists on campus. I'm one and I am liscensed to carry concealed by Ohio.
Just not on campus. See, only guys like Cho get to go around armed on campus. Those little stickers on all the doors with the "Ghostbuster" emblem of a handgun with a red line through it are all that stands between people like us and people like Cho.
I suppose we could get bigger stickers with "This time, we really mean it!" printed on them. That might work.
Now they are running stories that Cho was picked on in high school.
Oh God! Say it ain't so! Somebody, surrounded by a bunch of other emotionally immature people with the fragile egos of teenagers, got picked on in high school?
Sorry, but I'm holding this guy responsible for his actions. Even his own grandfather seems to be doing this. He was right about one thing. This didn't have to happen. The jackass could've not murdered people.
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 4:13:55 PM
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Last time I watched the news they were blaming Oldboy. Because you know, a Korean guy with a hammer is always a reference to Oldboy... even if the main character in that movie, if memory doesn't betray me, never kills anybody with a gun. But of course, it's easier to blame movies than accepting that such people do exist among us and pass for normal people, or that all the systems (therapy, law enforcement) designed to prevent that person from killing have failed.
And living in a country with tight gun control, I'm surprised the issue is not even mentioned this time. I mean, wackos are wackos, and they will kill if they have the chance, agreed. But I can't imagine anybody killing 32 with a kitchen knife or a hammer, which are the weapons of choice in my country when it comes to murder.
I say this as a personal opinion, not as a political statement. |
Edited by - Neville on 04/20/2007 4:16:29 PM |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 4:47:29 PM
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Well, I'm not willing to surrender my freedoms just because somebody else abused theirs.
Back in the 1980s if something like this happened there would already be a new gun control law on the floor of the Senate and it would likely be named after one of the victims.
You see, what happened at Virginia Tech was a perfect example of gun control in action. The majority of the people obeying a law that demanded they remain as defenseless as possible because it makes everyone "safer".
Criminals and murderers will get guns if they want them. This happens even in Spain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks
Except it appears that ETA prefers bombs over shootings.
You see, you criticize our systems (therapy, law enforcement) for failing, but you bring up another system, gun control, as a viable option. Why would we expect that to work any better than therapy or law enforcement?
The bottom line is that safety is either relative or a complete illusion. I cannot speak for all Americans, but I can for some of us. We are individuals. Until such time as Scotty can beam down a policeman to my side the instant I'm in any kind of danger, I'll continue to look after my own safety.
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Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 04/20/2007 4:49:28 PM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 5:05:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
Well, I'm not willing to surrender my freedoms just because somebody else abused theirs.
[...]
You see, what happened at Virginia Tech was a perfect example of gun control in action. The majority of the people obeying a law that demanded they remain as defenseless as possible because it makes everyone "safer".
Criminals and murderers will get guns if they want them. This happens even in Spain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks
Except it appears that ETA prefers bombs over shootings.
You see, you criticize our systems (therapy, law enforcement) for failing, but you bring up another system, gun control, as a viable option. Why would we expect that to work any better than therapy or law enforcement?
1) Gun control in action? Look, no, I completely disagree. Do you seriously mean the solution to violence in schools and colleges is armed students?
2) Sure ETA uses guns, and, yes, we do have illegal gun dealers, but ETA's actions are not representative of Spanish criminality, they're rather the exception. The only similar event in recent history in Spain that resembles the killings in Virginia is this one:
http://www.madridiario.es/mdo/anuario-2006/mayo2006/noeliademingo.php
It is the case of a doctor who suffered severe schizophrenia but was still allowed to work in a clinic. She went on a killing spree on 2003. Using a knife she killed three people and caused injuries to other four. Had she had access to firearms, we may be talking of larger numbers. It's my opinion, of course, but I think you'll agree it's easier to reduce a person armed with a knife than a person with one or more firearms.
3) Don't take my criticism of American police and whatever therapy that man received as personal attacks against your country, they're not. I simply state the obvious, that in these case they weren't enough to stop him. You ask me why do I think gun control wouldn't have failed. I don't if it would (although I'm sure it is one of the things that make my own country safer), but still three barriers should be better than two. |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 5:25:27 PM
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P.D: If you are interested in crime in present-day Spain, this is a very accurate summary:
http://spainforvisitors.com/archive/features/crimeandsafety_1.htm
Note that it states the following:
"In contrast (with terrorism and organised crime), theft and robbery are ever present dangers in Spain and you should take due care, without being overly paranoid. On the positive side, the use of firearms in street crime is practically unknown, and rape and sexual assault rates are very low."
Emphasis mine. |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 5:42:35 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Neville
1) Gun control in action? Look, no, I completely disagree. Do you seriously mean the solution to violence in schools and colleges is armed students?
No, the answer is SELF-DEFENCE. You heard about that professor, the Hollocast survivor? He was unarmed, but his courage saved many people.
One student related how he and his classmates had barracaded themselves in their room; when the murderer tried to open the door and failed, he fired two rounds through the door and left. Had one of the students had a derringer or .25 pocket pistol (A big, "Hollywood special" is not nessisary) and fired a couple of shots through the door in return, that scumbag would have c***ed his pants and ran off. It wouldn't matter if the shots had hit him, because scum such as this killer DON'T want to put their lives in danger. That's why they ineviatably kill THEMSELVES when the cops show up!
What if the people in one room started THROWING THINGS at him when the jerk flashed his guns? Anything, books, keys, coins, chairs, anything to throw off his aim, make him hesitate, hurt him and make him fear for HIS life! Sure, it may not have worked and they may have been killed anyway, but it's better to go down fighting than place your head on the chopping block, isn't it?
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 6:34:04 PM
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I'd like to thank the moderator for letting us get away with this discussion for this long!
Far, far more threatening to our future is not gunmen like Cho, but what appears to be our increasing unwillingness to stand up to them.
Neville, you wrote that you find it difficult to believe that somebody could kill 32 people with a hammer or a kitchen knife. In 2001, 17 men killed 3000 people with box cutters. Only after 3 planes crashed did the passengers on the last plane "get it".
A few years back a gunman in Canada (far more restrictive gun laws than ours) named Gamil Gharbi went to a classroom at the Montreal Ecole Polytechnique and ordered all the men in the class to leave. This they meekly did. These "men" stood by and did nothing even as they heard the first shots. Gharbi shot to death 14 female students. Then he walked out of the classroom, past those "men" who still did nothing, and out of the building.
Some armed students on campus? Even faculty members? Sure, why not?
Having graduated last month with my bachelor' degree, I am not currently a university student. But I was. As I already wrote, I am liscensed by the state of Ohio to carry a concealed handgun. I took the training they require for it. I can travel anywhere in Ohio and in states that recognize Ohio's permits with a handgun.
Except on campus. Nevermind that I'm an Iraq War veteran. A 1st Lieutenant in the Army National Guard and I've been in the Army for about 16 years.
Nevermind that I compete in handgun competitions 4-6 times a month and that most police officers only shoot their guns in qualification a couple times a year.
If the government has approved me to carry a handgun, why is it that I cannot carry at school? I'm a better pistol marksman than probably 99% of the police officers in the city.
And in America, serving in the armed forces helps pay for college. Actually, if you join the National Guard or the Reserves, they'll pay for all of your college. That's what I did. What that means is that there are many, many veterans at our universities.
Every class I was in had at least one combat veteran in it. Me. One history class I was in had me, a Marine, and an Army Ranger. We were all Iraq War veterans. My Vietnam War class had over a dozen veterans in it, including the professor. He flew rescue choppers in the Central Highlands and during the final evacuation of the U.S. Embassy in Saigon.
You think he'd screw up under pressure?
Wouldn't you rather trust a guy like me or the professor to do the right thing competently than to just hope that everyone acts good and never goes insane?
Having me or somebody like me there is almost as good, perhaps even better, than having a policeman in the room. Trust me, not all college students are irresponsible, immature binge drinkers. |
Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 04/20/2007 6:40:52 PM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 04:58:05 AM
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My objections to students / college personel carrying guns are not because they may screw up and cause bigger damage, although this is been known to happen: in the article about criminality in Spain I linked, it is mentioned that we recently had a wave of violent robberies to houses. The only 2 victims were killed by two an overzealous owner with a firearm who mistook two friends who were arguing with his son by criminals. I just think there must be a better solution than to allow more guns into the campus. I understand the right to carry firearms is very important for Americans, but what about the right to live / work study in safer environments? Shouldn't that come first?
As for using the September 11 attacks as an example, that is just far fetched. We all know those terrrorists didn't stab 3,000 people, did they? The example of Canada is more relevant, however, but I know little of that country. Is their gun control law recent? Is control over gun owners as strict as it should? Is there an active illegal trade of firearms? There are many factors to be considered. As I said earlier, I wouldn't expect gun control by itself to stop thses kind of killings, but to act as yet another barrier to prevent them. |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 07:31:23 AM
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No, not far fetched at all. They used simple box cutters to end the lives of 3000 people.
They couldn't have done it with just a lot of talk and the threat of fisticuffs. Those boxcutters were the weapons they used and it allowed them to completely dominate the situation and carry out their plans.
If not for those boxcutters, which would take either many, many strikes or one lucky one to an important artery in order to be lethal, nobody would've died on 9/11 except for maybe some of the terrorists having the absolute crap beat out of them by the passengers who outnumbered them. A little bit of fear and passivity was all that was needed.
As I've said, guns are already on campus. The police carry them. Problem is that police aren't usually the first ones at the scene of the crime. Regular people are the first people to witness a crime. And many of us are every bit as safe and responsible as those policemen.
The only glaring failing I can see in Virginia Tech revolves around the instant background check we all have to undergo when purchasing a firearm. Apparently, a court ruling declaring Cho mentally unstable didn't go into the FBI database.
When you purchase a gun, the dealer phones in your personal data to an FBI center in Atlanta. They check your background and okay the purchase. It seems to me that Cho should've been flagged right there for the court ruling on his mental state.
It wouldn't have stopped there. Even trying to purchase a gun when you know you aren't allowed to and falsifying your answers on the "yellow sheet" questionnaire is a crime. One of the questions regards your state of mental health and Cho obviously lied on it. The FBI should've flagged the purchase and the dealer should've contacted the police for Cho to be arrested.
Things are different here. We aren't Europeans. The cities in America with the most restrictive gun control laws, such as Detroit and Washington D.C., are the most dangerous ones to live in. Places that have the least restriction on regular people (because criminals ignore restrictions) are demonstrably safer.
There are statistics showing that 3 out of 4 violent crimes committed here don't even involve firearms. Without them, the woman is the mercy of the predatory male, the individual is at the mercy of the gang, and the elderly are powerless against the young. Basically, if you are a criminal, heavier, stronger, or even just meaner, you have nothing to fear from an unarmed victim. This doesn't strike me as fair.
The "right to live/work in safer environments" is a nice sentiment, but America isn't Japan or Sweden. We are not a monolithic, homogenous culture and we've got 300 million people here. It gets a little rough sometimes. And the cities that have tried, shall we say "European", approaches to gun and crime control tend to be our most crime-ridden and violent places. Surveys taken of prisoners have shown that many of them take into account the gun laws of the areas they operated in and that their fear of running into an armed citizen was greater than their fear of encountering the police.
That's the way it is here.
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Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 04/21/2007 07:36:28 AM |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 2:06:02 PM
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A te4acher who was caught in the Collumbine murders stood by the door with a fire extingisher to protect his students. We NEED men and women with courage, not laws that prevent us from defending ourselves and others and (in too many cases) punishing those who resist criminals.
Yes, that last part is true, and it wasn't always people who fired or even only pointed a gun.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 3:27:52 PM
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I have to say I'm not surprised that anti-gun laws on isolate cities (or even states, given the case) fail, given how easily the criminals can find firearms on nearby areas. I'm a firm supporter of gun control, as you have seen, but I wouldn't expect it to work unless 1) it is enforced in a whole nation at the same time and 2) the police and other law enforcement organisms start targeting illegal trade inmediately.
And even in that case I imagine it would take years to notice an improvement, as there still would be large numbers of firearms in hands of criminals.
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hbrennan
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Philippines
1455 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 4:11:29 PM
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That's right, Neville. The only place that I've lived in that I've seen it work was Japan. That's because the whole country is on the same page sociologically and law-wise.
"...yet it hadn't destroyed his brain."
re: Charles "The Butcher" Benton (1956)
http://www.henrybrennan.com/
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 07:24:41 AM
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Actually, look at Britain where gun crime has gone up since they passed tighter gun regulation. Plus, we're talking about a very big country here. It wouldn't take much to get guns into the country. If we can't stop drugs, we won't stop guns.
As someone mentioned earlier, the real problem with this was the lack of action on the people in the building. If you act like sheep, you'll die like sheep. We've taught kids, that the best thing to do is to crawl underneath their desks and wait. Who's surprised when they do the same thing as adults. It's the wrong message. People with no gun experience have this almost mythical belief in their power. As such, they create responses that do not match with actual abilities.
What should have happened? He probably could have done a lot of damage in the first classroom due to the surprise factor. After that though, he should have walked into flurry of charging students. Your standard size textbook works well for stopping most handgun ammunition. Hold that over your chest, scream like a demon, charge the guy, and go for his throat. If everyone does it, the shooter doesn't stand a chance. What's the other option, huddle under your desk and wait to die? Odds are that he's not going to get off any clean shots with people rushing him. One example that comes to mind is that in WWII the British started putting anti-aircraft guns on their merchant ships. They thought about taking them back off because they weren't hitting anything. However, they left them on once they realized that those ships got sunk less. The reason was that even though the AA gunners couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, shooting back disrupted the German pilots. The same thing applies hear. An aggressive response will disrupt the bad guy.
While I applaud the action of the one professor, his students should be ashamed of letting him die like that.
CC, I'm glad to see you are a fellow Ohioan.
Ken allows these discussions because 1) they don't happen too often and 2) we usually discuss things like adults.
- While science has societal benefits, science is not a social virtue. - |
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Pip
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 2:24:51 PM
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And I think it's like an avalanche. Once a little snow goes, it might all come loose. I read CC's note on the Quebec killing. (That somehow eluded me when it happened. Or maybe I repressed it. But OMG!) I ask, having never been in that kind of situation, who would let themselves get herded out the door like that, en masse? Particularly after the guy says he wants only the women to stay? Can anyone envision anything but something unspeakably awful happening next?
I realize that I'm just talking now, and maybe I would freeze up into some sniveling heap, but what might have been if even some ineffective loudmouthed pixie had hurled herself at that piece of garbage, flailing her arms and screaming? She waits until his eyes are on someone else, then goes. She maybe gets shot eventually but the rush begins. Down he goes.
What happened to us? (Sexist rant coming! Alert! -->) What happened to men? I live in West Texas and, part-time, in northern Nevada and eastern New Mexico. Men live here. I have a hard time thinking the flinty cowboys, beefy rig-workers, hombres from Mexico that walked here over Big Bend country and up through Presidio, etc. would have been herded out like that when women were threatened.
And now they want more laws and rules? Cormac McCarthy was right: you don't need many laws to govern good people. And no amount of laws can manage bad people. I wonder what might have happened if that had taken place at UTEP or NMS or UTPB instead of VT. Everybody seems to carry guns here.
Ready to get flamed.
Pip
"These five fingers: individually they're nothing, but when I curl them together like this into a single unit, they form a weapon that is terrible to behold!" - Lucy Van Pelt |
Edited by - Pip on 04/22/2007 5:42:55 PM |
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