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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 1:00:39 PM
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Have you seen Premonition and A simple plan? They're his best movies by far, and they show him capable of handling different, more adult material with ease.
And I maintain Darkman is great too. |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 3:06:28 PM
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I think a lot of the bad feelings toward Jedi come from the Ewoks, and their obvious "look how cute!" function, as well as the fact that the overall plan--another Death Star?--just seemed to echo the first movie.
I didn't hate Jedi myself, but it doesn't end up on the player very often. |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
262 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 7:26:22 PM
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| If you dislike Evil Dead II, don't watch An American Haunting. Courney Solomon apparently used it as a model for how to make scary camera moves. That and the Three Stooges. |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
322 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 7:26:41 PM
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I didn't hate it either, but the Ewoks really pushed the enevelope. Watching them defeat the Stormtroopers was like watching a Vacation Bible School group defeat the Afrika Corps. The stand Swiss Family Robinson made against the pirates was more believeable.
I don't think they were written in for just the "cuteness" factor. I think they were written in for the "We can sell a lot of toys based on these guys that even little girls might go for." |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2007 : 12:06:33 AM
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A Simple Plan was far more restrained than Raimi's usual fare, but just as ridiculous in its own way. I've seen Mexican telenovelas that were less melodramatic.
I'm just not a Raimi fan. It's that simple. Just another case where we'll all have to respectfully disagree.
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New Hinda
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
Israel
469 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 06:44:00 AM
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quote: Originally posted by Citizen Carrier I don't think they were written in for just the "cuteness" factor. I think they were written in for the "We can sell a lot of toys based on these guys that even little girls might go for."
My brother agreed. |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
262 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2007 : 6:23:22 PM
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| Actually, Wookies were originally short like Ewoks. We know this because Richard Dreyfus mentions Lucas describing them while making American Graffitti. Rickie figured he could play a Wookie, but later found out they were made taller to make them more menacing which left him out of the running. So, in a weird way, this is one portion of his true original vision. They still sucked, though. |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 10:32:46 PM
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This may be flogging a dead horse, but I finally got around to seeing Spider-Man 3 last night. It was far from perfect, and it had some moments that could rightfully called silly. But overall, I thoroughly enjoyed it, and came away thinking, Ya did good, guys. And they kept the main focus of the story on the characters, something George Lucas has lost the ability to do.
Considering that the whole Star Wars series really began to falter once Gary Kurtz left and Lucas took over full control (between Empire and Jedi), George has no room whatsoever to talk. |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 11:22:20 AM
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| I thought the series began to falter the moment the words "The Empire Strikes Back" scrawled across the screen. But that's just me. |
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Bobby-G
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
904 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 12:45:21 PM
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Just watched REVENGE OF THE SITH for the first time (Yep -- I was in no hurry to see this). Out of the "prequels", I'd say this is the best, with some actual good stuff in it -- however there so much bad, that it would take pages to chronicle. Main problem: Just can't buy that this "Anikin" character is the sort that could ever be trusted to be trained as a Jedi nor rotten enough to have become Darth Vader -- and this is due to a bad script, and I think a faulty theme that Lucas was persuing: that being that, golly, deep down Darth Vader is REALLY A NICE GUY, who STUMBLED into the Dark Side trying to do what he thought was right.
I think the series stumbled due to one of it's Highlight moments: Darth Vader being Lukes father. It could have been made to work if it turned out that Vader was a clone of Lukes father (and thus making a much more "Clone Wars" scenario), but with Vader literally being Lukes father and having the whole "basically good guy turns in bad guy" story line made it necessary to contradict so much from the (real) first flick, that it became ludicrous to campare the characters and situations from New Hope and episodes I - III.
OK -- that's all been gone into before, I'm sure. Did like the General Grievous character (the look reminded me of the last 60s vintage Ultron character from the Avengers comics).
Rob |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
1126 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 2:59:34 PM
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Well, to me,
Ep. III = vomit sandwich Ep. II = turd sandwich Ep. I = vomit and runny turd sandwich with maggots
- they all have edible parts in them but that doesn't change the overall experience.
I don't know if I entirely agree about the Vader thing though. I hope I don't open a huge can of worms, but its arguable that Hitler himself was probably a decent person at some age in his life, but he allowed a pursuit of ideas he honestly thought were good (in a moral sense) to corrupt him beyond a scope rarely seen in human history. But, had things gone differently he might have excised those demons, or at least controlled them and been productive in society- we'll never know.
It's a sound theme, Lucas just didn't do it well.
Now that I think about it, if we really buy the idea that Anakin was a good kid corrupted by choosing a bad means to a potentially good end, Yoda and the Jedi counsel are entirely to blame for exposing him to a Force (pun intended) that had the power to do this to him. They KNOW it's a potential outcome of any Jedi's training, further more they KNOW there is a Sith at large in their time, they KNOW Anakin is headstrong and arrogant and yet they failed utterly to sense or prevent his fall to the dark side. Then you get war, death, a dark emperor on the throne- I would think Yoda and Obiwan and the rest should be rotting in Jedi hell over that snafu.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook" --Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 06/18/2007 3:02:26 PM |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
262 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 4:00:30 PM
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I once wrote an outline (more of a sketch) of what I thought the prequels could have been which would have worked well with the original trilogy and you could have viewed them in numerical order and had it work.
But, such is life.
As it stands, the prequels are the worst rip-offs of Star Wars. Which is a weird thing to say. back before the special editions hit theaters, the sci-fi channel had a roundtable discussion show called Sci-Fi Vortex or something. They were debating Star Wars in one show and the question got asked: what is the worst rip-off of Star Wars? One guy said the prequels. I didn't believe him at the time because I thought Lucas could do no wrong back then. It's strange how i think that way now. |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 8:57:06 PM
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Zombiewhacker wasn't too far off in saying that things started to fall apart during Empire. To this day I don't know why people say it's the best of the series. Yes, it has the strongest direction, it's the best looking, it's the one where the show starts to branch out. But there were some serious plot holes in Empire, mostly centering on the pursuit of the Falcon.
Notice, though, that I said really falter. After Gary Kurtz left, George Lucas hired Richard Marquand to direct. I have no doubt Marquand was a competent and capable director, but Lucas was the one really in control (from what I've read, Irvin Kirshner had a lot to do with Empire's best qualities). Lucas had too much control, too much money, and not enough to prove. Now square that when you come to the second, uh, first, uh, whatever, trilogy.
Speaking of which, Jack nailed it on the prequels being closer to rip-offs than sequels. You still have that outline, Jack? I'd be interested in seeing it. It's always fun to see if a layman can outsmart a Hollywood power player. |
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Mark Hawley
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
 
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 9:38:43 PM
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With the whole "Spider-man is silly" thing was that even meant by Lucas as a knock or was it just acknowleding that superhero movies by there very nature are silly and taken out of context, something the news section over at IMDB has been known to do.
The original FOX article mentioned that when he said Star Wars wasn't silly, he winked, yet the IMDB conveniently forgets to mention that. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270874,00.html |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
    
262 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 10:45:32 AM
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quote: Originally posted by BradH812
You still have that outline, Jack? I'd be interested in seeing it. It's always fun to see if a layman can outsmart a Hollywood power player.
Well, OK. However, it doesn't seem as good to me now as it did a year ago, but such is life.
quote: I find various ideas come and go, start small and then grow as I dwell on them. I'm starting to think that my effort would be better spend on a project of my own so that the fanboys can bitch when i put out a special edition with enhanced footage
But, here's the basic story outline I have so far, such as it is, with a few notes. Like Lucas's original story synopsis, it would likely be very different from the final product, should one ever get made. In other words, what you read here is subject to change, and lots of it.
Also, as much as I love Star Wars, I'm not as well read on the EU or any other sources outside of the movies. So like Lucas, the movies are what I will base the prequels on and unlike Lucas, the movies are the only thing I will remain true to.
The Cloan Wars
That is not a typo. "Cloan" is the name for the recurring villians here. My reasoning is that there was a throwaway line referencing the "Clone Wars" in ANH. In 1977, "clone" was a vague, science fictiony word which could have meant anything. In 2006, the term clone is not only widely understood but has crossed from science fiction to science fact. Who'd a thunk that? I may be reading intentions not in Lucas's original ideas, but I also can't think of a way to work in the concept of cloning. I hated it in the prequels. With the clones and droid armies we basically were given two utterly disposable armies fighting with each other and as such there was no drama because we do not care about any of them. I don't like that. If I can think of a way to make cloning a part of the pplot I will but for now it's not Clone, it's Cloan.
Part 1: A Shooting Star
In the opening crawl we learn the villianous CLOAN ARMADA which has been waging an all-out war to overthrow the REPUBLIC. They have managed to gain a foothold on the peaceful world of ALDERAN, enslaving the planet to use it as a launch pad for further assaults.
The royal family of Alderan has been scattered. Prince Bail Organa struggles with a rebel band of followers to free his world from tyranny while his siter, Princess Amidala is under the protection of the famed Jedi Knight, Obi Wan Kenobi and his apprentice Qui Gon Jin. Forced into hiding, she prays for a chance to strike back at the armada and bring freedom back to her people...
Where's Brian DePalma when you need him?
This sets the stage for all the tension. The problem with the actual prequels is that there is no clear enemy, which was part the plan, but it unfortunately did not work. Star Wars was always a very simple story with very, very clear right and wrong. The muddled morality weakens the story. Worse, it makes the whole series not feel like Star Wars. It feels like the worst rip-off of Star Wars since Krull. It also weakens the narrative. A running thread through the OOT was the presence of Vader as a nemisis. Without that... It just doesn't work right.
Maybe my concept is similarly weak, but let's look at it thus far:
I have set up a struggle with the Republic under attack from an outside force, the Cloan Armada. Why? How do we know they are called the Cloan Armada? Who cares? How did Vader know Luke Skywalker's name by the begining of ESB? Some stuff doesn't really matter as long as the plot gets moving at a good pace. And this is a good pace. We are In Media Res for the Cloan Wars. Do we really need to see the time of peace before the war? I don't think so. All in all, I think this conflict is better for Star Wars than a blockage based on some kind of taxation dispute or whatever the heck it was.
Note how while this concept is a totally teardown of the prequels to start from scratch, I am not above reusing ideas here, such as the characters of Amidala and Qui Gon, although there are somewhat different people than in the actual prequels. I'm not planning on using the name Padme at this time, but Amidala sure as hell won't be going by that. I get that Lucas was trying to use the old saw from the cliffhangers of the dual identity and stuff as well as something from the original story synopsis where the princess was rather plain looking at first but was like a godess at the award ceremony. I just don't see the point of it, personally. Also, I ditched Naboo in favor of making Amidala part of the royal house of Alderan. Simplify things wherever possible. I'm making Qui Gon the apprentice because I think Obi Wan should have two apprentices, for reasons that will become clear later. I do flip flop over whether Obi Wan already has Qui Gon at this point or not, which will be clear later.
We open on the planet Aquilae at night. A shooting star goes by and three speeder whiz by, young people out joyriding. In the speeders are Owen Lars, Benjamin, Anakin Skywalker who has his girlfriend Beru riding with him. They race around. Anakin is easily the best pilot and makes more daring manuvers. They get a strange single on their scanners and land to investigate. Sneaking up on it quietly, they see a small detachment of Cloan Soldiers have landed. They are excited and frightened by this. They observe for a few moments and determine that it is not an invasion but they appear to be looking for something. The head back to their speeders but are spotted. They race away with the Cloan Soldiers in pursuit. Through ariel acrobatics and tactics, they manage to get the pursuing Cloans to crash land, but not before Owen is shot down near an old farm house.
I'm doing a few things here. One, I want to start Anakin as a young man/teenager. I understood the desire to have Anakin start as a small boy, but I didn't like it. If he was too old, Luke was positively ancient. Benjamin may have a red shirt on him at this point unless i manage to handle him right. Fans of the OOT probably can guess he's doomed.
I couldn't figure out how Owen could be Luke's uncle. Owen's name is Lars, but Beru does not seem like a Skywalker, and I hated the overcomplicated family ties in the actual prequels. Basically stepbrothers, right? Instead, I thought it would be good to make owen and Anakin just real good friends. People have their children call especially close friends aunt or uncle even though there is no actual relation. I kind of like this because it gives us a reason to give a fig about Owen and Beru and makes there eventual deaths all the more tragic. At least for this first installment, we will see them actually engage in the struggle so that their decision to become simple farmers is a very real choice. They tried being amoung the movers and shakers in a galactic struggle, and decided it was not for them. But I am getting ahead of myself. Also, I made Beru Anakin's girlfriend here because it will give some potential tension when Anakin falls for the princess and Beru decides to go with owen instead. We'll see how I handle that.
A man comes out of the farm house. It turns out to be Obi Wan Kenobi, the famous Jedi Knight. He congratulates the young people on their stunt flying and check on Owen to make sure he is OK. ObiWan decides this planet is no longer safe and tells the princess that they should leave. The young people ask if they can come with them, but ObiWan refuses because it is too dangerous and that they should go home and he watches them speed away.
Obiwan, his apprentice and the princess secret away to a space port In the hopes of meeting a contact for safe passage to a new hiding place. The princess is accousted by roughians. obiwas and his apprentice defend her and are helped by the youths who has followed them. ObiWan relutantly agrees to let them come along.
The escape and are contacted by Bail Organa who asks them to return to Alderan to help with the battle against the Cloans. The return and ensuing fighting occurs involving the Cloan battle plattform, which is a space station that is in synchronous orbit around the planet because it has a long elevator that leads from the planet surface all the way to the platform in space.
During the ensuing action:
* Anakin and Amidala start a romantic interlude * Beru and Owen also kindle a romantic spark * Benjamin dies in ObiWan's arms, giving him a guilty concious about bringing the kids along * Anakin's skills and force potential becomes apparent to ObiWan * The platform is destroyed, the Cloans are defeated, Alderan is saved. Yay!
At the end, Obi Wan invites Anakin to train under him to be a Jedi Knight, even though having more than one apprentice at the same time is unheard of for the Jedi. He accepts. Owen decides that this is not the life for him and will return home. He asks Anakin to come with him, but Anakin says he is staying. There is a tearful separation between Beru and Anakin that is similar to the ending of Casablanca but she eventually gets on the transport. Obiwan, Quigon, Anakin holding hands with Amidala watch it depart.
Fade out.
A lot of this is pretty sketchy right now. I think the prioncess needs some kind of mcGuffin to give the Cloans a reason to seek her out. I mean, they took over her planet. Why do they need her? Beats me. It's in the script.
Naturally, we'd be seeing all kinds of ass-kicking on the part of the priciples, including Bail Organa. Fleshing out his character and the planet Alderan will help make its destruction all the more potent.
There are two things I want to try to avoid in these prequels that the actual prequels did:
1) outdoing the OOT. A big land and space battle was how the OOT closed, so what's that doing in TPM? Double Light saber? R2D2 flying? WTF? The Star Wars series always built with each episode trying to outdo the previous episode in some way. But these movies are supposed to come before those movies, so they shouldn't outdo them. It is a difficult task to make these movies work well as the first three episodes of a series while being interesting to today's audiences.
2) no friggin' cameos!. i didn't like how R2D2, C3PO, Greedo, Chewbacca and probably others were just kind of dropped into the movies. it felt cheep, like "Oh look, there's so-and-so from the OOT" I hate that. Actors appearing is OK, like Warwick Davis. I also don't mind 98 Degrees, to be frank. It's not like they'd be singing. But characters should be there if they matter, and for most of these folks, they don't.
Part 2: The Shadow Falls
This one is even more sketchy, but this is what I have.
* Anakin has been training to be a Jedi Knight.
* Qui Gon is still an apprentice and is chaffing under Obi Wan's tutilage now.
* The nature of the Jedi is different from the actual prequels. In those films, the jedi were rather institutionalized with a rigid structure and such. My Jedi are much looser. ObiWan calls them together to try to get their aide against the Cloans, but they are reluctant as it is their duty to defend peace, not to be involved in political struggles. If the Cloan armadas conquer, they will continue to make peace under their regime.
* Obi Wan's most vocal opponent is Mace Windu who is displeased with Obi Wan's exploits as they are a bit garish for a Jedi.
* A mysterious figure in black has been killing Jedi Knights. This person wears a mask to conceal his identity
* Obi Wan and his apprentices go to find this person on a planet with poor atmosphere, so they wear breathing equipment which obscures their faces and alters their voices. the two apprentices search together and then one kills the other. ObiWan find the pile of clothes and Anakin's lightsabre, which he takes.
* Obi Wan confront the figure in black and learns that the person calls himself Darth Vader and is one of his apprentices. They battle and vader is plunged into the lava.
* ObiWan returns to the front of the Cloan battle and finds out that the Jedi have sided with the Cloans. In the Chancellor's Palace, ObiWan and Mace Windu battle, but it turns out that the reason why the Cloans were attacking is because the chancellor of the Republic is evil and Obi Wan's loyalties had been sadly misplaced.
* Vader returns as a mechanical monstrosity and a battle ensues, jedi die but obi Wan escapes.
I kind of like the reversal here with the Cloans being actually the good guys all of a sudden because the chancellor is, you know, the emperor and stuff. It makes the story about the failings of Obi Wan, how is somewhat non-jedi ways led to the downfall of everything he holds dear.
Obviously, Bail and Amidala need to be in here somewhere, but it's sketchy as of yet. I think Anakin and Amidala's marriage needs to be stated at some point. They kind of have to be married since I doubt that children out of wedlock would go over well.
My main purpose here is to keep Vader's true identity a secret until ESB. Imagine the shock for someone who first sees these movies in order. This actually strengthens the whole 6-part series, tying them together. The actual prequel weaken this. Sure, we get to see Anakin's fall from grace, but it makes the reveal in ESB weaker because we already know this.
Part 3: The Fading Light
Still sketchy, but this is what I have:
* The chancellor declares the Republic is now an empire. "And democracy dies to thunderous applause" appears in the opening crawl, rather than being shown. Also the Jedi are declared outlaws. This is all in the crawl.
* Obi Wan has left behind the name of Obi Wan as it is no longer safe, so he goes by Ben. Note the tie in to the first episode! Woo!
* Amidala has secretly given birth to a son, which Obi Wan thinks should be hidden.
* the Emperor and Vader learn of the child and begin hunting for the son of Skywalker
*Obi Wan takes Luke to Dagobah and consults with his master, Yoda. Yoda tells him it is not safe to leave the boy here as the emperor is hunting down the Jedi and both he and Vader will not rest until they find the son of Skywalker.
* Vader confronts Amidala about her son and kills her when she refuses to tell him where he is.
* In a final battle, Vader and Obi Wan clash over the child, with lots of hiding and stuff, like the sabre battle in ESB. Which ends with vader seizing the infant and then obi Wan slices off his hand (mechanical) and tries to catch the child but the blanket unravels and the baby falls into the lava (Lava? Again??)
*years later, Obi Wan goes to tatooine where Owen and Beru have set up a moiture farm and tells them it is now safe as the emperor thinks Luke is dead and he has come to take Luke to train him to be a jedi Knight.
*Owen refuses to let Obi Wan take Luke and says that Anakin should have stayed with him and not gotten involved. ObiWan warn Owen to not get in the way of another's destiny and departs.
* Luke comes out and asks who that man was. Owen says it was no one important. They all look at the starry sky. A shooting star goes by. Beru points to it and says "Look! There's you're father. Owen gives her a sharp look and tells Luke that maybe someday he'll tell Luke all about him.
Fade out.
I don't think much here needs explanation. Making Luke a central item to drive the plot makes this a strong story. Making it appear that Luke is killed helps explain why the Emperor is not still searching for him. Bringing Luke to Dagobah adds to the lines Luke says in ESB about how Dagobah is familiar like he'd been there in a dream. I might even have a scene with Leia which Bail says is his daughter and he and Amidala exchange a look which becomes apparent in RotJ. I do like the ending and how the trilogy is bookended by a shooting star.
In any case, this is my idea for a prequel trilogy... at least at this time. I now welcome comments and rocks chucked at my head.
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