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Prankster
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
727 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2005 : 7:36:16 PM
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I'm pretty much totally with you on your review, Ken. I too was baffled by exactly how the fairy tales of the actual Brothers Grimm were supposed to relate to what we were watching on screen. My fairly straightforward theory is that an earlier draft simply had the Grimms be the historical Grimms, writers and folklorists, and were brought on to solve this particular fairy tale mystery because of their "experience" in this area. That would make a lot more sense (one also assumes that all the fairy tale references were tacked on later). This may be the result of Gilliam monkeying with the script, though the credited writer, Ehren Krueger, is not exactly Paddy Chayefsky either.
I strongly disagree with you on Burton vs. Gilliam, though. I think they're much closer in nature than you're giving them credit for. In fact, while watching "Brothers Grimm" I kept thinking that was way too similar to, and had all the same problems as, "Sleepy Hollow" (if you want to see the same basic story as these two movies done right, rent Christophe Gans' "Brotherhood of the Wolf"/"Le Pacte Des Loups").
Gilliam's cynical, sure (it's not hard to see why, either, if you know his filmmaking history or have seen "Lost in La Mancha") but I think he has the same affection for imaginative innocents as Burton...he's just willing to give them an unhappy ending if he thinks it's called for. However, I've always thought analyzing the "messages" of either Burton's or Gilliam's films might be wasted effort, since I think both of them tend to be focused more on stream-of-consciousness filmmaking rather than trying to convey a specific meaning. They both seem to focus heavily on gags, visuals, and "moments" while often letting the story as a whole unravel as it will (and unravel they frequently do).
Anyway, I love "Brazil" and have a lot of affection for some of Gilliams' other stuff, like "Time Bandits" and "12 Monkeys", but neither he nor Burton are on my list of "filmmakers who can do no wrong".
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Check out my online comics at [URL]http://www.phantasmictales.com[/URL]! |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 08:36:36 AM
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I beleive that Burton and Gilliam are largely intuitive filmmakers too, just that their intuisions go in fairly divergent directions. I'm not saying Gilliam is by any means a bad filmmaker, but I've never really enjoyed (as opposed to appreciated) one of his films, whereas a handful of Burton's films are among my favorite movies ever.
Certainly Burton *can* do wrong, at least by my lights. Mars Attacks, for instance, left me totally cold, and I didn't even bother seeing Planet of the Apes. Also, oddly, I'm apparently one of the few people who doesn't love Ed Wood. (Yes, ironic, I know.)
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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Prankster
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 2:45:16 PM
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I guess what I'm saying is that, while Burton's films are more traditionally sentimental, I get the same sense of detachment from his stuff as Gilliam's. Both of them have sympathies towards certain of their characters, but I don't think either of them usually make movies with a lot of "heart". Though there are exceptions--I actually think Gilliam put a lot of himself into "Time Bandits" and even "Baron Munchausen".
Both these guys used to be animators, and having been one myself I can say that a common problem with animators is that they focus too much on tiny details while letting the big picture get away from them. I guess that's what sometimes bothers me about both of these two--I get a sense that the story is just a christmas tree which they can load up with ornaments, so to speak. It's not that they don't have something to say with those stories, it's that it feels like they lay down a plot and characters without thinking too much about the ramifications of what they "mean" or what they say about either the directors or society as a whole. Look at Edward Scissorhands, for example. (SPOILERS) It's always bugged me that Ed just pretty much flat-out kills the villain at the end, when the whole theme of the story to that point seems to have been anti-violence. It felt like Burton just needed an ending and didn't mind if it ran counter to the rest of the movie. To me that's the essence of being a detached filmmaker. (Though Big Fish was pretty heartwarming, I have to admit.)
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Check out my online comics at [URL]http://www.phantasmictales.com[/URL]! |
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Marlowe
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
445 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2005 : 09:59:18 AM
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Um, isn't the fact that Ed's final action ultimately confirms his outsider status- that instead of passively running away when the mobs are chasing him but actually actively representing what they fear he'll turn into and willingly paying the cost for that- a little more complex than simply "I needed an ending"?
Well, I think it is, anyway. Since the movie is as much tragedy as it is fantasy, the ending is entirely appropriate- it shows that there really is a darker side to Ed's generally gentle nature, and without that moment, the fact that his creator never finished him would never be entirely as moving as it is.
http://www.badmovieplanet.com/duckspeaks |
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Prankster
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
727 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 09:34:41 AM
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I suppose that's true. I dunno--maybe I need to see it again. But that climax always seemed out of place. It almost seemed to justify the townsfolk's shunning of him. And for a whimsical family movie it seems to swing too close to an action-film moment.
It's not even the fact that he kills him, so much as the way the scene's handled. Ed just sort of leaps out at him. I think it would have worked better if he was threatening Winona or something and Ed had been driven to protect her.
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Check out my online comics at [URL]http://www.phantasmictales.com[/URL]! |
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twitterpate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
1026 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 12:36:21 PM
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Well, I saw the Brothers Grimm on the weekend, and I must admit to being kind of nonplussed. It really doesn't feel like a Gilliam movie, somehow.
I'm wondering if the production got hit with a case of LOTR-itis; that the producers suddenly announced, "Jackson did a wonderful fantasy by making things look real - we should do the same!" But reality is not Gilliam's forte, and he doesn't quite pull it off. (The person watching it with me wondered why there appeared to be an Orthodox church in a small Bavarian village.) There's not enough of a sense of space to make you forget it was mostly shot on a sound stage.
Also, it's an almost colourless movie; perhaps they were trying to copy LOTR's colour effects, where Jackson artificially "stripped" the colour out of scenes. However, they may have forgotten that he used that effect for contrast, not THE WHOLE MOVIE! I could see it being effective if used for "real life", while the fairy-tale world was coloured, but other than the Queen's dress, and the Red Riding Hood, I can't remember any particular colours in the whole thing.
A rather puzzling effort from a director who is normally highly oriented towards the visuals. |
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Prankster
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
727 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 02:55:29 AM
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Just thought I'd revive this thread, simply because I saw both these director's latest movies, "Tideland" and "The Corpse Bride" respectively, at the Toronto Filmfest. Reviews here:
[url]http://badmoviezone.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=d77f6b67a765096100e7d2df06a39bca;act=ST;f=5;t=7586[/url]
[url]http://badmoviezone.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=d77f6b67a765096100e7d2df06a39bca;act=ST;f=5;t=7591[/url]
While "Bride" is certainly quite good, I couldn't help feel that Burton is repeating himself--there are a lot of elements of his past work in this (Nightmare Before Christmas, obviously, but also Beetlejuice and maybe a smattering of Sleepy Hollow). Meanwhile, "Tideland" is a stunning recovery from "Brothers Grimm" for Gilliam.
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Check out my online comics at [URL]http://www.phantasmictales.com[/URL]! |
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