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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2006 : 2:21:52 PM
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Some how, Nathan Shumate got me to thinkin', in the Jacob's Ladder thread, about one of the most hated pieces of Star Trek / Next Gen tech ever...the Holodeck.
There is some similarity to the problims associated with the J L ending, in that, it can set you up for thinking your watching one kind of story, and you get another.
Sadly, i feel that applys even when you know someone is on the Holodeck.
Personaly, i think it is the way it reminds you of the fragility of a fictional reality.
In the end of the ST/N-GEN eph. with the Holodeck Moriarty getting control of the 1701-D, Picard even hints at his own fictional nature. That bugged me.
Sometimes, its hard enough to take some story settings, without the movie in question giveing its self an existential wedgie.
Kinda like the ending of Blaazing Saddles....sure its a comedy, but Mel, try and keep it in context! I respected the end of Young Frankenstine because it ended consistantly with the reality it set up in the first place.
I know, maby i'm being to hard 0n B.S. ending, but there is something to say for internal logic...even in a comedy by Mel ( Ain't i a toomler?") Brooks.
(Sigh)...what i mean is...have you ever wanted to buy into a movie, and found, its breath ain't makein' it?
"Cole, stop handing Dr. Doom the Keys to the Baxter building." Brent Sienna/PvP.
"I speak 34 different languages. But gibberish is not one of them."- Danger Mouse.
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2006 : 6:14:14 PM
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Well, in the case of comedy in particular, part of the reality of the film is whether it will adhere to a logic or not. Blazing Saddles was as much about film convention and cliches in general as it was about westerns, so it allowed itself to break out of the movie itself and onto the backlot and other stages. I think it works, especially since Mel had himself backed into a real plot corner otherwise!! It both abuses and parodies the sort of Deus Ex Machina writing that many screenwriters employ. And then you have the Monty Python/Young Ones sort of surrealism where it's a given that logic is in for a beating.
As for the holodeck... it was a great device for letting the writers of the show go places it couldn't otherwise, pure and simple. It got abused at times but generally it set up some pretty good shows, IMO. At least it made more sense than the original series and their "hey, it's a planet JUST LIKE EARTH- only for this!!" episodes *g*
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
Edited by - Sardu on 07/12/2006 6:15:03 PM |
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Bobby-G
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
904 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2006 : 11:46:22 PM
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I just hate the whole idea of a "Holodeck" or other "just like real life" type simulators in movies and TV shows -- It just sets up fake "drama" and makes me feel cheated. If they had these things, why would anybody want to leave them, anyway?
SPOILER
Not exactly like a holodeck, but the same "cheat": I reacall back in 1980, ABC would be playing these promos for the new GALACTA 1980, with these scenes of all these Cylon fighters attacking Earth (buildings being blasted, ships straffing the citizens etc) -- Wow looked way cool! Then when the show comes on, it opens with these scenes -- yes cool -- BUT THEN we find that this was just a "simulation" of what COULD happen, if the Cylons find Earth. Ugh -- what a rip-off!
Rob |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 12:26:00 AM
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To my knowledge the holodeck was never used as a surprise or a cheat. Was there ever a Trek storyline where you thought something was happening in reality and it turned out to be a holodeck experience?? They always let you know events were occurring in the holodeck right up front. Again, it was just a device to add different locations and settings to the show. If anything, Trek's use of alternate realities and time anomalies is probably a worse offender of what you're talking about, IMO.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 04:29:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
To my knowledge the holodeck was never used as a surprise or a cheat. Was there ever a Trek storyline where you thought something was happening in reality and it turned out to be a holodeck experience??
Yes, on a number of occasions: at least three separate episodes of ST:TNG and twice on ST:DS9. I'd be more specific only I wouldn't want to spoil it for fans who never saw the episodes in question. |
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kdraut
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 09:04:03 AM
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I never understood why you would have a device on the ship that could kill crewmembers and take over the ship. Has Starfleet forgotten how to build a fail-safe button?
http://www.kdraut.com/photo |
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ahab
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 09:06:41 AM
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No they just forgot how to build one that doesn't break every second time it is used
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Oh sure everyone wants to save Hitler's brain, but when you put it in a great white shark suddenly you've gone to far! |
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twitterpate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 09:34:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bobby-G
I just hate the whole idea of a "Holodeck" or other "just like real life" type simulators in movies and TV shows -- It just sets up fake "drama" and makes me feel cheated. If they had these things, why would anybody want to leave them, anyway?
I've always thought that the Holodeck was treated very casually for something that could have such overwhelming implications for society. A place where you can program life as you want it - adventures, travel, and of course sex/personal relationships (and I for one was always a little creeped out in the way that the show overlooked the issue of relating to people who weren't actually "real"). I'd imagine that there'd be a BIG issue with Holodeck addiction; to the point that as a captain, I wouldn't want the blasted thing on my ship.
Could have been an interesting story about a ship where the crew decided they preferred the Holodeck to living in real life. |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 11:54:41 AM
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Well, TNG would loose its shiny happy tone if they went into the very real potential ramifications of REAL humans exposed to something like the holodeck. Of course, TNG humans are pretty much perfect and would be above all that- expect for Charles Barkley!! He was as close to that type of storyline as they could go.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 11:56:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
Yes, on a number of occasions: at least three separate episodes of ST:TNG and twice on ST:DS9. I'd be more specific only I wouldn't want to spoil it for fans who never saw the episodes in question.
Go ahead and post them and just label them in big caps. (This board needs spoiler tags pretty badly)
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
Edited by - Sardu on 07/13/2006 11:57:56 AM |
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kdraut
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 1:17:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
Well, TNG would loose its shiny happy tone if they went into the very real potential ramifications of REAL humans exposed to something like the holodeck.
You mean having to address the loss of productiving after Ensign Rhedshert discovers that he can create an imaginary world populated by thousands of Christy Canyon clones, all of whom carry serving trays filled with bacon and hot wings?
(Not that I've ever thought about it.)
(Maybe a little)
(Extra hot with a side of ranch, please)
http://www.kdraut.com/photo |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 1:27:40 PM
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SPOILER AHEAD
SPOILER AHEAD
(don't look, don't look!!!)
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TNG: ship in a bottle, future imperfect, hollow pursuits
DS9: the search part 2, inquisition (?)
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END SPOILER ALERT
END SPOILER ALERT
You can look now. :) |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 1:47:19 PM
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I don't think the last one you listed for TNG really counts (which is of course the one that at least alludes to the problems Twitterpate brings up). The other two do though, but they are really good uses of an established technology, not just a blindside out of nowhere (like Dallas and the "it was all a dream" plot arc back in 70's). I don't remember the DS9 episodes so won't comment on them. So OK, they used the ploy once or twice- they did it better than anyone else!
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2006 : 2:02:32 PM
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The last one I mentioned for TNG I was only talking about the final scene, where we're supposed to think Barclay is on the bridge of the Enterprise when in fact he's still in the Holodeck. (BTW, anyone could see that twist coming a mile away.)
In fairness, the first episode I mentioned for DS9 the culprit is not precisely a holodeck (really more of a virtual reality machine a la The Matrix) but the results are the same. |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 12:25:54 PM
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Good to konw i'm not the only one with reservations about this plot device!
Holodeck Addiction : Now that hasgot to be a major problim in any universe.Beats blow up dolls all to Hell ( or Kronos!)
Its just too tempting! Sardu makes some good points.as does KDraut. As a plot story mecanisim, it could work, but for myself, its become a symbole of deconstructing a fictional reality.
Its weakens the stage the story struts upone, if you will.
"Cole, stop handing Dr. Doom the Keys to the Baxter building." Brent Sienna/PvP.
"I speak 34 different languages. But gibberish is not one of them."- Danger Mouse.
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