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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2007 : 9:26:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
I get the feeling that if I were from another country and most of what I knew about America came from movies and TV shows, I'd think the southern states were hotbeds of racism, corporations run the White House, and if you drive 50 miles in from either coast you'll be in Jesus Land.
Heck, my sister-in-law thinks that and she lives in Pittsburgh.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 10:35:56 PM
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Neville, here's where a lot of Americans will think you are wrong. You state that you see gun control working in your country, yet are concerned about others taking away what you consider to be your basic freedoms. Now, if the state declared tomorrow that those freedoms were gone and the military supported them, what are you going to do? You are fairly defenseless. Americans believe in gun rights not because of hunting but because it provides the citizenry with some force to check the force of the state. Off topic again, but I had to point that out.
Actually before I wasn't really accusing you of moral equivalence. What I am trying to show (and probably poorly) is that your liberalism is really a form of fundamentalism just like any other belief system. You have fundamental values that you believe are sacrosanct just like any Christian, Hindu, or Muslim fundamentalist. For example, let's take a look at homosexuality. A liberal will say that homosexual deserve exactly the same rights as anyone else (marriage, adoption, etc.). Muslims will most likely state that they should suffer punishment according to Sharia. Christians may state that homosexuals should be denied certain privileges such as marriage and adoption. (I know there are a broad spectrum of responses here, but let's just use these three options for simplicity.) Now, the point is not to debate the good or bad of homosexuality but to show that all three belief systems make moral claims. Liberals are saying that homosexuality is at a minimum the same morally as heterosexuality. Muslims that homosexuality is bad enough to warrant death. Christians that it requires some censure. What this means is that instead of applying liberalism as some neutral arbiter, we should be evaluating liberalism with the same scrutiny we apply to other belief system.
Actually I'm putting an equivalence on the liberal belief system by saying that it should be judged just like any other belief system. Liberalism is not somehow special and above other systems of belief.
- While science has societal benefits, science is not a social virtue. - |
Edited by - Terrahawk on 05/15/2007 10:38:31 PM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 04:11:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Actually before I wasn't really accusing you of moral equivalence. What I am trying to show (and probably poorly) is that your liberalism is really a form of fundamentalism just like any other belief system. You have fundamental values that you believe are sacrosanct just like any Christian, Hindu, or Muslim fundamentalist. [...] What this means is that instead of applying liberalism as some neutral arbiter, we should be evaluating liberalism with the same scrutiny we apply to other belief system.
Actually I'm putting an equivalence on the liberal belief system by saying that it should be judged just like any other belief system. Liberalism is not somehow special and above other systems of belief.
Yes, you have a point there. It's difficult to avoid "holier-than-you" attitudes when you dealing with firm convictions, and I'm afraid liberals are known for that too. There are no easy answers, but if we were on a debate I'll answer that the liberal aproach to the topic you mention (wether homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals or not), is more consistant with the basic concepts of a democracy (same rights for everybody) than the present state of things.
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 08:41:13 AM
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Regardless of the gay content the film was rated "R" so technically it was illegal to show it to 8th graders.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 11:17:42 AM
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Once again, i appreciate the "No flame wars allowed" policy Ken has here. Right on!
Neville: I think what you say about Spanish Catholics is part of the misunderstanding we Americans have of your personal social context.
We have been so parted from Europe, we forget, that what we left behind has changed, yet the roots run deep.
This may be intresting. Today, Mike McConnell on his WLW radio talk show, brought up a "Creationisim museam" opening in Cincinnati. There are protesters who want it shut down, because it does not present "Truth".
Intresting how many Athiests called in to complain abouthe place. The first such caller was on a tirade. Mike realy showed restraint in pointing out how intolerant he was.
My point is, that when emotion gets involved, people can turn to the "Dark Side" for any justification.
Being "Liberal" does not keep anyone from being bad tempered, any more then being "Coservitive". People are people, and they can find any way they want to justify getting what they want.
Can anyone get a link to this story? Its in Cincinnati.
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KDOT
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 1:05:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
Regardless of the gay content the film was rated "R" so technically it was illegal to show it to 8th graders.
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
Yes, I think we all agree in that point. We stopped discussing that issue a while ago, but I think the point of divergence was wether the family was morally entitled to sue or not based on the fact that the content of the film offended their beliefs.
Legally, that's another issue. The law is on their side on the aspect you mention, but on the other hand I wonder if they will be able to prove that the film has caused any emotional distress to their child. |
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TheFoywonder
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
833 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 10:37:19 PM
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quote:
When an American makes a derogatory statement about "Socialism", he is not referring to it in the narrow economic sense. He is talking about the increasing and unnecessary encroachment of government power and influence into the day to day lives of people.
And given the current state of conservatism in the US these days, socialism is no longer just a left-wing concept.
$500,000 for having to watch BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN? Hmmm... I had a teacher in high school who had us watch NAVY SEALS with Charlie Sheen. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars am I due for having to sit through that crappy film?
Now Playing in Foyeurism at Foywonder.com:
APRIL 2007 - The Reaping, Redline, Perfect Stranger, Next, & The Condemned
Plus: B-WARE THE BLOG is alive at http://www.livejournal.com/users/foywonder |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 05:58:37 AM
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They made you watch Navy Seals? That's a good one. Under what subject and what excuse did the teacher have?
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TheFoywonder
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
833 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 10:15:42 PM
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Senior year, history class, last two days of school.
A guy in the class going into the Marines after graduation convinced the teacher to let him show it. He seemed to think that NAVY SEALS wasn't just a great movie; it was true-to-life.
Now Playing in Foyeurism at Foywonder.com:
APRIL 2007 - The Reaping, Redline, Perfect Stranger, Next, & The Condemned
Plus: B-WARE THE BLOG is alive at http://www.livejournal.com/users/foywonder |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 05:25:06 AM
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| To be fair, the final action scenes are well staged. As for the rest... does celluloid make decent toilet paper? |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 09:41:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville
To be fair, the final action scenes are well staged. As for the rest... does celluloid make decent toilet paper?
I'm guessing, no. No traction, ya might say...
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KDOT
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Matrixprime
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2007 : 1:31:11 PM
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I haven't seen the movie.
From reading up on the MMPA, I get the impression it is largely populated by Conservative Christian types (priests, etc being elected to the board at various points).
That said, why is this movie rated R? Everything I've read doesn't indicate anything of what I'd consder R rating (full nudity, violence, extensive profanity). Was this rated R solely because they're gay?
Mind you, I'd be annoyed if I had to see it...but thats because I can barely tolerate Westerns (Brisco County Jr and Tombstone are about it), hate dramas, and I've heard its over 2 hours long - and if its that long and there ain't no aliens or monsters, I ain't interested.
Bah Weep Granna Weep Ninny Bahn - Universal Greeting
Est Solarus Oth Mithas - Solamnic Knight Pledge
And now its me too:
http://matrixprime.blogspot.com |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2007 : 5:36:14 PM
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Actually, it is a rather tame movie. There's some passionate kissing between the leads and little else. Oh yeah, and some female nudity.
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The Rev. D.D.
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 09:38:02 AM
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Well, there was a brief simulated sex scene between the leads. The camera's focused on Ledger the whole time, although I recall a quick shot of the side of Gyllenhaal's butt. I imagine that was enough for the MPAA, along with the cursing.
Plus the beating at the end; while shown in quick edits, it's still bloody and absolutely brutal.
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I wish I could quit you, Jabootu... |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 10:22:25 AM
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| How could I forget... |
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