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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2009 : 1:06:37 PM
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Funny, but the IAWL thread spurred this. Quoting Altair IV: "I've noticed that whenever something reaches the point of cultural saturation it usually starts to develop detractors."
How can anyone read that sentence and not think Titanic?
Although it's very unpopular to say this on the Internet these days, I'll say it: I liked Titanic and thought it was a very good movie. You may hold the opposite view. That's fine. My real question deals with the phenomenon of Titanic itself. Why does this particular movie always manage to push so many of the wrong buttons?
I think the "neg" side can be safely divided into a few smaller camps;
1) The anti-chick flick crowd. I've never seen a study done, but I'm willing to bet that this group is overrepresented on the Internet and in "nerd culture" (cough cough) in general. And let's face it, Titanic is a chick flick, Kate Winslet notwithtanding. That's why it's a popular movie anywhere else, but if you only post to movie forums or go to Comic-Con, you're likely to think it's the worst movie ever made.
2) The anti-Cameron crowd. They hate the guy, they've always hated the guy, he's arrogant, he's insufferable (so they say), and now that he's become a Hollywood mega-saurus, they want to dump on him every chance they get. (And shortly, they may well get another -- wink.)
3) The pro-Cameron crowd. That's right. They ate up all his early stuff and they felt betrayed by Cameron, that Titanic was some kind of sell-out. (Interestingly, I believe this group has some cross-over with group one.)
4) The stick-in-the-muds. These are the folks who've never set foot inside Comic-Con, but they have seen Gone With The Wind a hundred times. In some ways, they're the most anti-Hollywood crowd, the kind that believes that showbiz hasn't turned out a decent picture since John Wayne died (if not John Barrymore). Therefore, they're outraged that such a calculated, artificial, lowest-common-denominator "product" like Titanic (in their minds) could win umpteen Academy Awards and rake in so much dough.
What do you think, sirs? |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 7:21:39 PM
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How about "the anti-Dicaprio" crowd? Not only did he stink up this romantic/adventure flick with his prettyboy/teen idol act, he also ruined a remake of The Man In The Iron Mask, amoung others.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:24:25 AM
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I don't hate the movie, but I give an explanation of why I don't like it in replying to your points:
1. Don't like chick flicks but Titanic isn't a romcom but more of a historical drama. I tend to like historical films so this isn't the reason for the dislike.
2. I don't hate Cameron. I just find that his work has diminished as he has acquired more clout. You could see it with T2, serious issues with The Abyss, True Lies is forgettable, and Titanic seals the deal. Cameron is a lot like Lucas. Both have become more entranced with technology than story telling. Anyways, I'm not an uber-geek.
3. Ah but that crowd uses Titanic as the club to beat detractors of Avatar. "Titanic was stupid but still made mega bucks. Now that he has returned to Sci-Fi, Avatar is golden." So, I figure this group has lessened in their hatred.
4. Not me, so I can't comment.
My take on Titanic is this. Technically the film is astounding. The sets are gorgeous, the detail amazing, and the sinking ship unsurpassed. Cameron did great work there.
The story is a wreck. It's 90's sensibilities placed in 1912. You have the cross class relationship. You have the villainous rich people and the righteous poor. It's all ham-handed story telling. Finally, I hate the "rich let the poor die" undercurrent to the story. Check out the stats, it was mainly a "women and children" first mentality. You can't just look at the percentages of each class saved (Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics). You have to look at the total numbers to start with. Anyways, my main dislike is for the inept love story and the inability of Cameron to set the film in it's proper historical context. The film title should have been Titanic '98.
I summon Bigger Fish! |
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Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:00:33 PM
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As a child, my first exposure to Titanic was from that old television show Voyagers. Where art thieves stole the Mona Lisa and were travelling home on the Titanic.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvj2aqKhc-k[/url]
Later, I ate up reports about how the Titanic had been discovered on the ocean floor.
So when I heard that Cameron had done a movie about the Titanic, I was ecstatic. And when it premiered, I saw it in a full theater. And in a rare moment, when the movie was over, it got a standing ovation. And I was pleased.
I didn't think about the flaws of the film at the time and neither did anyone else.
But I think what caused the backlash was what happened later. The success of Titanic had producers going all over Hollywood to pitch love stories set against a dramatic backdrops. One specific movie was named Pearl Harbor.
THAT was when I started hearing derogatory things about Titanic. Because Pearl Harbor was so obviously created to cash in on Titanic's fame, people fell over themselves trying to get the word out.
But the argument was framed funny. Basically, Pearl Harbor's detractors were saying that people who like Titanic had in some way been hoodwinked. That the love story in Titanic had in some way been a crass way to get people in to the theaters. And that when Pearl Harbor comes out, you shouldn't be hoodwinked again.
And it was with that argument, that Titanic's detractors took the ball and ran with it. Pointing up the film's flaws to show that Titanic fans had been had.
And that's been the argument ever since, that Cameron had somehow got one over on the public and they should be more careful.
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"Ward, the Beaver blew up the 7-11 again."
"I'll have a talk with him Dear" |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 4:58:19 PM
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| I'm pretty much in line with Terrahawk on this, though I hasten to point out that I didn't hate Titanic, I just didn't like it--and there is a difference. My reaction was more passive, "eh". My own point would be that Cameron (again, I don't hate him) started sliding in quality with Aliens, but I'm pretty sure that's not a widely-shared view (if it's shared at all). |
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RossM
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 08:47:14 AM
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| I have to say that Cameron's movies are all exceptionally well made as he puts all the money on the screen. The are all entertaining and eyefuls. None are really bad although the one about the underwater station was rather stupid. I Titanic is not for me but I have to admit that it looks amazing and the details are so good that it really takes one back. The story is purely girl pop and not for me. A Night To Remember is better but not nearly as good looking. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2009 : 7:34:11 PM
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I think the general rule is that Cameron should not be allowed to write a script on his own. He needs someone to keep his worst impulses in line.
RVHorror, you think he started sliding with Aliens? I think you can see where his vices are in the film and where they are going to grow if someone doesn't ride a little shotgun on him. But, it's an interesting take that that is where he started to slide.
I summon Bigger Fish! |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 7:58:55 PM
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I've always said Titanic is half a great film, and half a gawdawful one. The good one is the one that portrays the actual sinking of the ship.
The bad one is the one that ignores the fascinating socio-political aspects of the story because Cameron wished to push an utterly retarded and one-dimensional poor people good / rich people bad thing; the one that figures the sinking of the Titanic is so boring that the movie should toss in a shootout or two to make things interesting; the one that is so schematic about characters being either 'good' or 'bad' that Cameron took away the real life remark of the ship's designer, to the effect that "Even God couldn't sink her," and gave it to Billy Zane instead, because Zane was 'bad' and thus the sort of guy who would say that, and so on. And yes, the romance is positively painful.
Hank Hill, perusing a waiting room magazine: "I'll tell you what, this Goofus fella is a dumbass."
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 7:43:45 PM
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Ken HPoJ said:
quote:
...Cameron took away the real life remark of the ship's designer, to the effect that "Even God couldn't sink her,"...
I think that was from a newspaper story, not the designer.
I think that A Night To Remember was superior (Too bad they couldn't FX the ship breaking in half, even though it was mentioned in the book) because they didn't consentrate on two fictional characters and instead gave the audience a variety of personalitys.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 09:53:18 AM
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I would agree that Cameron is an excellent director, who really knows how to present a scene and drive the purpose of the scene forward in a very visceral way. But yes, I think his best writing by far is the first Terminator film. The themes that dominate his work (feminism, mistrust of technology, love of weapons) are all there, but they are organically integrated into the story and characters so that they are not even half as preachy as his latter films. In fact, I'd say they're not preachy at all which is what gives them strength.
And yes, I started seeing these flaws in Aliens. Take the scene where Ripley says to nuke the facility from orbit. Burke's response is "Well, this station represents a substantial dollar investment--" which is, come on, guaranteed to elicit "Oh, come on, you awful capitalist!" from the audience. Cameron can't press his point if all his characters are fully-rounded and have reasonable attitudes.
I came up with a much better response, which is both plausible and doesn't paint Burke as the evil money man: "Nuke it from orbit? Sure, Ripley, sure. Cut your losses and run home to momma. Come on. You yourself said this species was not native to this planet. So what happens if we find them somewhere else? Nuke 'em from orbit? Just say 'Sorry' to the men and women fighting to colonize that planet, 'Sorry, we ran into the big bad aliens again and we don't know how to fight them!' We have to learn how to fight them, Ripley. What happens if they're found on a larger, established colony? What happens if they end up on Earth? Do we cut and run until we run out of places to hide? We've got to find a way to defeat them without simply destroying the ground they happen to be standing on."
Admittedly, that's longer than what's in the finished film, but then, I'm not paid millions to write this stuff. |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 09:09:12 AM
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I came up with a much better response, which is both plausible and doesn't paint Burke as the evil money man: "Nuke it from orbit? Sure, Ripley, sure. Cut your losses and run home to momma. Come on. You yourself said this species was not native to this planet. So what happens if we find them somewhere else? Nuke 'em from orbit? Just say 'Sorry' to the men and women fighting to colonize that planet, 'Sorry, we ran into the big bad aliens again and we don't know how to fight them!' We have to learn how to fight them, Ripley. What happens if they're found on a larger, established colony? What happens if they end up on Earth? Do we cut and run until we run out of places to hide? We've got to find a way to defeat them without simply destroying the ground they happen to be standing on."
Admittedly, that's longer than what's in the finished film, but then, I'm not paid millions to write this stuff.
[/quote]
Dude...you should be!
It sure beats the original scene.
"Vulcans : The designated drivers of the universe."
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KODT
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 1:18:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken HPoJ
I've always said Titanic is half a great film, and half a gawdawful one. The good one is the one that portrays the actual sinking of the ship.
Funny, the first half of the movie was always my favorite part. It was the second half that was stuck on stupid. |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 4:52:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Flangepart
Dude...you should be!
It sure beats the original scene.
Thanks! My version, however, doesn't leave any reason for Ripley's "Zinger" response: "They can bill me!" I have the distinct feeling that a number of the scenes were constructed from the "Zinger" backward, just to give a reason to use them. |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 08:20:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
quote:
Originally posted by Ken HPoJ
I've always said Titanic is half a great film, and half a gawdawful one. The good one is the one that portrays the actual sinking of the ship.
Funny, the first half of the movie was always my favorite part. It was the second half that was stuck on stupid.
Well, yes, that's when the character stuff gets fully and utterly moronic and insipid. However, the sinking of the ship stuff is briliant. A technical brilliance, but brilliance nonetheless.
Hank Hill, perusing a waiting room magazine: "I'll tell you what, this Goofus fella is a dumbass."
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