| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2005 : 5:49:28 PM
|
*** This thread does contain spoilers. You have been warned. ***
I mentioned this briefly in another thread, but am looking for other opinions. BSG ended it's summer run last week with Adama and Kaine facing off over the chief and Helo.
Now, the whole episode seems to be filled with sloppy plotting (which also seems to be the downward trend as of late.)
First, while it is true that Kaine outranks Adama, with the Quorum of 12 re-established, the civilian government (i.e. Roslin) is over the fleet. So, it doesn't really make sense for Adama to go "nuclear" right from the start. Jumping the line of command, while no good, has far fewer bad outcomes. If Kaine refuses to obey, it wouldn't be hard for the fleet to agree to a secret jump location and just leave the Pegasus behind. That situation would leave Pegasus in a bad position since it would not have the support facilities offered by the fleet (this was mentioned in a previous episode). Basically, it would doom them to eventual death, either from the Cylons or lack of supplies and maintenance. Basically, Adama could handle this without resorting to a direct confrontation. It might devolve into that, but it shouldn't start there.
Second, Apollo and Starbuck deserve to take a naked walk out the airlock. Kaine is right in that Adama has let them get away with murder. Their adolescent behavior during the briefing is a perfect example. And what is the big deal with keeping track of scores on fighter aircraft? It's been done since planes have been used for warfare. It was stupid that Starbuck would think it was somehow morally wrong.
Third, the whole Cylon prisoner thing was just.....weird. Baltar's chip gets all righteous about her doppleganger's treatment. Yet, her kind are responsible for slaughtering most of humanity. Don't expect me to cry anytime soon. Plus, how likely is it that you would sexually assault a Cylon? Who knows what that would do to you. The whole storyline is really bizarre.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
|
|
CDiehl
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 7:45:24 PM
|
quote:
First, while it is true that Kaine outranks Adama, with the Quorum of 12 re-established, the civilian government (i.e. Roslin) is over the fleet. So, it doesn't really make sense for Adama to go "nuclear" right from the start.
Nice thought, but Caine hasn't been listening to Roslin all that much as it is. The President should really start cracking the whip with Caine more, since Caine's so gung-ho about the chain of command, but I don't see that happening soon, considering Roslin's condition.
quote:
Second, Apollo and Starbuck deserve to take a naked walk out the airlock. Kaine is right in that Adama has let them get away with murder. Their adolescent behavior during the briefing is a perfect example. And what is the big deal with keeping track of scores on fighter aircraft? It's been done since planes have been used for warfare. It was stupid that Starbuck would think it was somehow morally wrong.
One of my favorite parts was when Adama slapped down Starbuck when she tried to continue her complaining. He was totally right when he reminded them how they've all been slacking off, and Caine was right to call him on that based on reading his logs. They've spent a lot of effort making life in the fleet as close to normal as they could, and part of that normal life is following the usual rules of the military. As for not marking off kills, there are arguments for and against that practice under these circumstances. One one hand, it is irrelevant in a situation where every day you get through is a gift. On the other, the Pegasus has been all alone for a long time, with no fleet to interact with, and nothing to look forward to but more battles with the Cylons, so they need something to keep up morale.
quote:
Third, the whole Cylon prisoner thing was just.....weird. Baltar's chip gets all righteous about her doppleganger's treatment. Yet, her kind are responsible for slaughtering most of humanity. Don't expect me to cry anytime soon. Plus, how likely is it that you would sexually assault a Cylon? Who knows what that would do to you. The whole storyline is really bizarre.
At first, I was right along with you, since I had not even considered the possiblity the prisoner was sexually assaulted. I couldn't summon up much sympathy for a Cylon who got beat up for info and chained down to the floor after she personally had killed 7 Pegasus crew members, and after the Cylons had almost totally wiped out the Colonies in an unprovoked attack. When the interrogator started trying to undress Boomer, I put it together, and when the interrogator went down, I was actually happy. I have no problem with a degree of harshness when fighting a war, especially when the stakes are survival or destruction, but rape is not justified. The part that I would nitpick was that the interrogator tried this crap in the Galactica brig. Had he gotten permission from Caine to move Boomer to the Pegasus for further questioning, he'd still be alive, Helo and Tyrol would have been none the wiser and Boomer would be FUBAR.
You know Grand Funk, don't you? The wild, shirtless lyrics of Mark Farner? The bong-rattling bass of Mel Schacher? The ... adequate drumwork of Don Brewer? |
Edited by - CDiehl on 09/28/2005 7:46:49 PM |
 |
|
|
Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 8:42:49 PM
|
I know Kaine isn't listening. But, Adama establishes his moral position by getting Roslin to act, even in an ineffectual manner. Just disobeying the chain of command though puts him in a delicate position in the future.
Regarding, the tally marks on the side of the fighters though, I just got the impression that Starbuck and Apollo saw something inherently wrong with it. I could be wrong. I would think that most military people would say, "If that's what the Admiral wants, then that's what we'll do." It's a minor thing. I know the writers were trying to show how Kaine is taking over, but it just seemed too much was made of it.
Yes, watching Starbuck get slapped down was sweet.
Actually, I don't support the rape either. It just doesn't make sense from a military interrogation or discipline standpoint. And you are right, Kaine would have had her transferred to the Pegasus from the start. She could have easily explained it as seeing how two Cylons together would interact. Adama would have given in easily.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
|
|
|
dconner
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:14:12 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Actually, I don't support the rape either. It just doesn't make sense from a military interrogation or discipline standpoint. [/br]
Yeah, I couldn't figure out the rape thing either, at first. If your viewpoint is that Cylons are just machines mimicking human responses, then it's completely pointless. Sure, they're not entitled to humane treatment on that view, but the whole course of action is as useless as kicking your computer and calling it names to make it run better. Not to mention a grotesque violation of (otherwise depicted as super-strict) military discipline for the crew to be messing around with a "sex toy." And if the Cylons are *more* than just machines, it's clearly not only wrong, but also ineffective.
Basically, I concluded that the only way to square the circle is if the "Lynndie England had orders to do bad stuff to prisoners direct from Rumsfeld and Chimpy McHitlerburton, because they like ordering people to do evil, useless stuff, because they're evil and stupid" theory makes perfect sense to you. And thus the subplot is a powerful allegory to what's really going on today, and a daring indictment of our incipient fascism, yada yada yada. |
|
|
|
dconner
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:21:23 AM
|
In general, though, that one oddity aside, I thought the episode was rather well done. I like the fact that, as Ron Moore points out on his podcast, Kaine is indisputably *right* in a great many of her points as she goes through a list of highly questionable command decisions by Adama.
Oh, one other thing I didn't buy was the hasty court-martial. I know there usually are regulations allowing for quick court martials in the extraordinary circumstances where the usual due process can't be followed, but in all the ones I've ever seen depicted, at the very least all officers of command rank would be involved (i.e., Adama would be on the court martial too.) |
|
|
|
CDiehl
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 09:59:06 AM
|
I think she didn't bother with the full court-martial because this is wartime and she has the authority to summarily punish those under her for offenses like this, and it's an open-and-shut case from her perspective. I doubt claiming Boomer was about to be raped is going to hold water with her for a number of reasons. Also, Caine herself reminded Adama how he had suspended courts-martial in a matter involving Helo previously, so his request that these two get a jury trial this time sounds to her like favoritism.
You know Grand Funk, don't you? The wild, shirtless lyrics of Mark Farner? The bong-rattling bass of Mel Schacher? The ... adequate drumwork of Don Brewer? |
|
|
|
twitterpate
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
1026 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 11:14:19 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dconner
...but the whole course of action is as useless as kicking your computer and calling it names to make it run better....
But it's always worked when I threaten the fax machine with physical violence! |
|
|
|
Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 12:23:23 PM
|
I thought what Adama suspended was the tribunal on Cylon infiltrators. I don't remember Helo facing a court-martial or it being mentioned in this episode.
I don't think that Kaine can claim detached service, since technically she has rejoined the fleet.
I do agree that Kaine is right in a lot of ways and it made the episode better. However, Adama really hasn't been positioned by the writers to have much of a leg to stand on. I always felt that "Babylon 5" handled the issue of breaking orders very well. It never was a flippant decision. I guess I just found the episode uneven. The whole rape part just felt tacked on. And since dconner mentioned it, I think he is correct that it was meant to be an allegory to today (just didn't want to start a discussion on that).
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
|
|
|
CDiehl
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 7:23:16 PM
|
quote:
I thought what Adama suspended was the tribunal on Cylon infiltrators. I don't remember Helo facing a court-martial or it being mentioned in this episode.
That's correct. After I wrote that, I read a review of this episode on another site, and it mentions that Caine referred to Tyrol being tried and Adama getting rid of tribunals after that.
quote:
don't think that Kaine can claim detached service, since technically she has rejoined the fleet.
I would say she can't make that claim because she is now in the same location as the President, the VP, the Quorum and almost the entire surviving population of the Colonies. That is not detached service by any stretch of the imagination, since what is she detached from?
quote:
I do agree that Kaine is right in a lot of ways and it made the episode better. However, Adama really hasn't been positioned by the writers to have much of a leg to stand on. I always felt that "Babylon 5" handled the issue of breaking orders very well. It never was a flippant decision.
She's totally right about how undisciplined Adama's people are and how little he does to discipline them. I agree that Babylon 5 handled the issue of disobeying one's superiors well, since the main characters still suffered some consequences for rebelling, even though they were in the right and on the winning side.
quote:
The whole rape part just felt tacked on.
The attempted rape was a bit of a cheap, manipulative ploy. If the scene was more like a more conventional interrogation, people would have to deal with what they're really like, instead of this 1-dimensionally evil behavior. We already get that the crew of the Pegasus has had a very different experience of this war than the Galactica did, but it isn't necessary to make them seem evil to get that obvious point across.
You know Grand Funk, don't you? The wild, shirtless lyrics of Mark Farner? The bong-rattling bass of Mel Schacher? The ... adequate drumwork of Don Brewer? |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Forum Locked
Topic Locked