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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2006 : 12:41:51 PM
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A little more rant- for me the biggest giveaway that the prequel backstory was little more than a general idea when Lucas made the first movie is Han's line (and that Death Star guy too) about the Jedi and the Force being basically some kind of ancient religion/mysticism that no modern person took seriously. According to the final storyline, the Jedi had been in full flower only, what, twenty years before?? Most people around at the time would have known that the Jedi were entirely real and powerful from actual experience. It would be like someone 20 years old in the 60's doubting the existence of Nazis. GL just never actually THOUGHT about it.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
Edited by - Sardu on 06/01/2006 12:43:11 PM |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 12:57:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
The whole Luke and Leia being brother and sister always felt tacked on to me. It seemed to be a case of "We need another big plot twist like The Empire Strikes Back" decision. You could take that whole subplot out of RotJ and not do the story much damage.
Well, it did serve one good purpose. When Vader threatens to lure Leia to the Dark Side, that's when Luke finally snaps and unleashes holy hell on Vader like never before. That was the best moment of the whole movie, and one of the best scenes in the original trilogy. |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 1:51:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
And then complicate it further with totally unnecessary coincidence like saying Anakin himself built C3PO. I think that's the single dumbest concept in all six movies.
And having C3PO included in the prequels is where I think Lucas' claim to having plotted all this out doesn't bear scrutiny. C3PO spends an awful lot of time on Tatooine in Phantom and Clones, and I think the fan community's head-scratching about why he doesn't remember any of this in Star Wars led to "Oh CRAP, they're right! I'll just have someone erase his memory."
Actually, having all those characters from the OT appear in the prequels was just depressing, like Lucas had to shoe-horn them in. Even Greedo was there (admittedly, in an outtake). I'm surprised there wasn't a bit where a pregnant woman made an off-hand answer, "If it's a boy, we're going to name him Han!" |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 2:49:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
A little more rant- for me the biggest giveaway that the prequel backstory was little more than a general idea when Lucas made the first movie is Han's line (and that Death Star guy too) about the Jedi and the Force being basically some kind of ancient religion/mysticism that no modern person took seriously. According to the final storyline, the Jedi had been in full flower only, what, twenty years before?? Most people around at the time would have known that the Jedi were entirely real and powerful from actual experience. It would be like someone 20 years old in the 60's doubting the existence of Nazis. GL just never actually THOUGHT about it.
I agree with you. If Lucas had wanted to do the prequels, he should have made the Jedi almost mythical at the time the prequels took place. The Sith could have been running the Empire for the past 500 years or so while the Jedi worked in the shadows to overthrow them. Their plans failed though when Anakin betrayed them to become the new apprentice to the Emperor. Twenty years for an Empire just doesn't make it too impressive.
Zombiewhacker, but how can you handle the absolute overacting of Hammill with his scream of "NO!!!!!" It just gets on my nerves. I do concede though that it does give Luke is motivation.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
262 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 5:15:01 PM
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Originally posted by RVHorror
I'm surprised there wasn't a bit where a pregnant woman made an off-hand answer, "If it's a boy, we're going to name him Han!"
"Do you need any help giving birth?"
"No thanks. I'll do it solo." |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 7:21:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by zombiewhacker
quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
The whole Luke and Leia being brother and sister always felt tacked on to me. It seemed to be a case of "We need another big plot twist like The Empire Strikes Back" decision. You could take that whole subplot out of RotJ and not do the story much damage.
Well, it did serve one good purpose. When Vader threatens to lure Leia to the Dark Side, that's when Luke finally snaps and unleashes holy hell on Vader like never before. That was the best moment of the whole movie, and one of the best scenes in the original trilogy.
While I agree that Luke going berserk and handing Vader's ass to him was a great moment, that whole Leia-is-your-sister bit was forced in because Lucas couldn't think of anything else to really get Luke mad. (George-y said it himself in an interview around '84.)
Only problem is, as said before, it's shoehorned in and is very awkward. And, I don't think it works. Luke would've heard Vader say "If you won't be turned, perhaps she will," and he would have thought, Nice try, pops. I don't buy this being enough to set him off.
To get the kid riled up -- and make the scene work -- Vader needed to pour it on, just keep sending the taunts out until Luke reached his breaking point. For this, they needed to turn to a better writer, pure and simple. And Lucas was already out of ideas by this time. |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
262 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 8:28:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BradH812
While I agree that Luke going berserk and handing Vader's ass to him was a great moment, that whole Leia-is-your-sister bit was forced in because Lucas couldn't think of anything else to really get Luke mad. (George-y said it himself in an interview around '84.)
Only problem is, as said before, it's shoehorned in and is very awkward. And, I don't think it works. Luke would've heard Vader say "If you won't be turned, perhaps she will," and he would have thought, Nice try, pops. I don't buy this being enough to set him off.
To get the kid riled up -- and make the scene work -- Vader needed to pour it on, just keep sending the taunts out until Luke reached his breaking point. For this, they needed to turn to a better writer, pure and simple. And Lucas was already out of ideas by this time.
Well, yeah. Return of the Jedi needed a better writer all the way around. i agree that the sister thing was handled poorly. What should have been a major revelation was sort of chucked out like a one liner in a Monty Python sketch.
but then, Leia was not originally meant to be Luke's sister. That and a final confrontation with the Emperor was meant to be in the third trilogy, but wound up in the third movie instead. If he'd taken three movies to introduce and develop the sister character AS his frickin' sister, it'd have ben pulled off better. |
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Kooshmeister
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 9:29:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
A little more rant- for me the biggest giveaway that the prequel backstory was little more than a general idea when Lucas made the first movie is Han's line (and that Death Star guy too)
That'd be Admiral Motti. Sorry, in full-on geek mode here. "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader!" |
Edited by - Kooshmeister on 06/01/2006 9:43:31 PM |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 9:33:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
And having C3PO included in the prequels is where I think Lucas' claim to having plotted all this out doesn't bear scrutiny. C3PO spends an awful lot of time on Tatooine in Phantom and Clones, and I think the fan community's head-scratching about why he doesn't remember any of this in Star Wars led to "Oh CRAP, they're right! I'll just have someone erase his memory."
And why did Anakin build his mom a protocol droid anyway? "It speaks six million languages- you can use it to wash the dishes!!". In fact, if it's so easy to make droids, who the hell needs slaves??
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
Edited by - Sardu on 06/01/2006 9:33:52 PM |
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Kooshmeister
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 9:43:59 PM
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By the way, just in case anyone wants more proof that Lucas is an idiot who thinks fans will believe whatever he tells them, look no further than a minor supporting character in Attack of the Clones. Y'know, the second Neimoidian seen with Nute Gunray in Attack of the Clones? The guy with the deep voice and the tall, black crown? In Lucas' original script this was supposed to be Rune Haako (Nute's friend from The Phantom Menace), but they lost Rune's mask so during filming so they used the mask of Daultay Dofine instead. The story goes that, on-set, they named the "new" Neimoidian Gilramos Libkath after crew members Gillian Libbert and Kathryn Ramos, and the Episode II Visual Dictionary picked up on this, referring to the guy as Gilramos. Despite this, Lucas has apparently changed his mind and wants us to believe that it's Rune Haako after all, even though the Neimoidian neither looks nor sounds anything like Rune, and Rune is back to looking and sounding exactly as he did in TPM by the time of Revenge of the Sith.
Although that Neimoidian is a very minor character who amounts to little more than set dressing in the story AOTC tells, the fact Lucas and his people refuse to just admit defeat and stubbornly insist it's a character it cannot possibly be really suggests, to me anyway, that George has become a delusional, power-mad lunatic (not to put too fine a point on it). The fact the credits list the wrong actor as well as say it's Lott Dod, the Neimoidian senator from TPM, doesn't help matters much... |
Edited by - Kooshmeister on 06/01/2006 9:45:38 PM |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2006 : 10:20:26 PM
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Well, I blame the hard core fans for that kind of stuff. One, they gave him the big head in the first place, acting like his every word about continuity is The Gospel, and two... well, there is no two actually.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
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zombiewhacker
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1475 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 02:49:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
Zombiewhacker, but how can you handle the absolute overacting of Hammill with his scream of "NO!!!!!" It just gets on my nerves. I do concede though that it does give Luke is motivation.
I thought Hamill did a fine acting job in Jedi, particular in those scenes at the end with Vader and the Emperor. His voice, however, has always been a bit thin and high, so maybe that's what grates on your nerves. |
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Terrahawk
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
644 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 05:46:29 AM
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I found the acting in RotJ to be...subpar. It had that soap opera feel. ESB on the other hand had much better acting, IMHO. This makes the drop in acting between the two movies all the more jarring.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist. |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 06:44:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
I found the acting in RotJ to be...subpar. It had that soap opera feel. ESB on the other hand had much better acting, IMHO. This makes the drop in acting between the two movies all the more jarring.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist.
Simple explanation for that. ESB was directed by Irvin Kershner, whom I heard Lucas had a falling-out with, basically because Kershner wanted to be, you know, the director, not a yes-man for the executive producer. Jedi was "directed" by Richard Marquand, and Lucas made it clear Marquand was to lock step behind him. Lucas could direct the B-movie-esque Star Wars (I am not gonna call it "A New Hope" thank you!), but he just wasn't up to handling the more mature matter the series had to grow into. |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 09:10:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
I found the acting in RotJ to be...subpar. It had that soap opera feel. ESB on the other hand had much better acting, IMHO. This makes the drop in acting between the two movies all the more jarring.
Well, yeah, but watching Harrison Ford say "Come on, you don't want me to go because of the way you feel about me!" sprained my cringe-muscles. |
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