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Mark Hawley
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
Canada
48 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2006 : 10:54:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BradH812
quote:
Originally posted by Terrahawk
I found the acting in RotJ to be...subpar. It had that soap opera feel. ESB on the other hand had much better acting, IMHO. This makes the drop in acting between the two movies all the more jarring.
The ROPe gives you three options, convert, submit, or die. There is a fourth, resist.
Simple explanation for that. ESB was directed by Irvin Kershner, whom I heard Lucas had a falling-out with, basically because Kershner wanted to be, you know, the director, not a yes-man for the executive producer. Jedi was "directed" by Richard Marquand, and Lucas made it clear Marquand was to lock step behind him. Lucas could direct the B-movie-esque Star Wars (I am not gonna call it "A New Hope" thank you!), but he just wasn't up to handling the more mature matter the series had to grow into.
Actually Lucas offered directing ROTJ to Kershner but he turned it down.
Kershner discussed it in an interview for Sight and Sound:
"Why didn't Lucas have you direct Return of the Jedi?
For two reasons: One, I didn't want to. Two, I was asked halfway through shooting Empire, and by that time I knew that Jedi would be a three-year project. It took two years and nine months for me to do Empire, and I didn't want to go through that again. Also, I didn't think it was good to do two for George. I didn't want to be a Lucas employee. And I'd read the script of Jedi — not the whole script, but a scaled-down version — and I didn't believe it."
And while I know there was some tension between Lucas and Kershner (and producer Gary Kurtz), it was mostly over the film spiralling over budget. However, they definitely didn't have a "falling out" and seem to be on good terms. Also from the article:
"Despite all that, I really enjoyed working on it. I had a ball. A lot of that is because George is such a great producer. He left me alone. All he'd say is, “What do you want?” and “How do you see it?” I did storyboard the whole film, though."
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=672&page_number=1
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Mark Hawley
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 11:30:30 AM
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And Kooshmeister, I'm confused.
The character sounds different, looks different and is given a different official name (at least in the Visual Dictionary) so how is Lucas himself trying to convince anyone it's the same character? Just because Rune appears in ROTS after sitting out AOTC?
Billing him as Lott Dodd seems to be a mix up more than anything, but not an intentional act on anyone's part to convince anyone it's Rune for the first one.
Then again, I'm not exactly an expert on Neimodians.
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 12:37:16 PM
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| I'd heard that David Lynch was also offered Return of the Jedi. He would be completely wrong for the project, but if we ever invent a machine that can travel between alternate realities, I'd love to see that version. |
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MikeC
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 1:10:51 PM
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I, too, agree that the backstory of Luke & Leia being
brother-and-sister was NOT in place until well into
the process of scripting ESB (though I do recall reading
fan speculation about that in STARLOG magazine soon
after STAR WARS was released, oddly enough). I think
that a lot of what has been good about the STAR
WARS movies comes from the first draft & other
consultation done by Leigh Brackett on ESB (her
last professional credit, almost literally on
her deathbed). Not only was she one of the best
script writers ever, she was also a damn good
silver age SF writer who was well versed in
the heroic SF tradition.
But, lest you think that Lucas pulled the first
three movies solely out of his wallet, if you go
through the introductory notes in THE ANNOTATED
SCREENPLAYS for Eps 4 - 6, as well as track down
a MASSIVE screenplay history of STAR WARS: A NEW
HOPE on the 'net (check out The Jedi Bendu script
site at http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/ for
about as complete a record as you will likely
find outside of the sekrit Lucasfilm archives),
Lucas did manage to work in some of what he'd had
in his earliest conceptions of the saga into
the Prequels (specifically: the vision of having
non-governmental trade guilds being political
players as well as making Palpatine a pretty
clear pastiche of Nixon). Alas, he also sought
to remake the things that had worked from the
earlier movies (revelations about parentage,
having a low tech people take on a high-tech
invader, etc) and rather than coming off as
sly homages, they were simple recycling.
The problem, though, is that it seems that once
Lucas set himself to a plan, he was hell-bent
to follow it, often to the detriment of his
overall narrative. I've surmised that, basically,
if Lucas had known when he was making the original
STAR WARS that he'd've been able to do all three
movies of that trilogy, he'd've ended it with the
rescue of Leia from the Death Star. That would
have led into ESB, and then to ROTJ. The Death
Star would have remained as a shadowy "ultimate
threat" until the last movie, which would have
ended with the big "Dam Busters" finish.
When he didn't think he'd be able to get all
the movies made, he just tacked the ending of
the saga onto the movie. But, when that movie
proved to be the biggest hit in movie history,
he didn't bother to go back and reformulate a
new ending: he just stuck with the script.
What *I* think Leigh Brackett added to the mix
was a more formal fleshing out of the Luke/Vader
dynamic, as well as a more formalized view of
the Jedi. After all: the personal nature of
the oedipal conflict between father and son is
very much out of Lucas' normal range (though he
wasn't incapable of such humanistic filmmaking,
as AMERICAN GRAFITTI and to a smaller extent
THX-1138 show), and it must have come from someone
other than Lucas.
Not to sell him short, though: I fully credit him
with the general outline of the story of the fall of
the Old Republic. I just don't think he had much
meat on the bones, and has been mining the story ideas
provided by Ms. Brackett for nigh unto 30 years
without really questioning how to make them better.
MikeC |
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Mark Hawley
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
Canada
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 1:39:59 PM
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Actually both Kasdan and Lucas has claimed that Brackett's draft was scrapped and that she was solely credited in tribute.
This was posted on the Home Theater Forum by a poster named MikeRS and illustrates how Empire was written:
You can read Brackett's draft at two locations.
1)The Skywalker Ranch library (But you need to know somebody to get there . All drafts of Lucasfilm works are freely available to read on the premises)
2)Eastern New Mexico University's library
Incidentally, all the pivotal EMPIRE story beats were actually worked out by George Lucas on his own. He wrote two drafts after Brackett's death before hiring Lawrence Kasdan. He had as much (if not more) to do with drafting EMPIRE's script as he did in JEDI. He just decided not to take screenplay credit.
You can read more about the different drafts of the Original Trilogy in "The Annotated Screenplays - By Laurent Bouzreau"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034...lance&n=283155
Lawrence Kasdan:
Quote:
"Look, there's no question that Leigh Brackett was one of the great screenwriters of all time. But it was an odd job for her, and there's nothing of that draft left in "Empire."
"George had hired Leigh the way anyone would--because, oh my God, she's Leigh Brackett, and because he wanted a Hawksian, goading humor between Han Solo and Princess Leia. But Leigh couldn't serve George the way he wanted to be served. Out of all our respect for her, she was always going to get a credit for the movie."
Quote:
Q: HOW DIFFERENT IS THE LEIGH BRACKETT DRAFT FROM WHAT ENDED UP BEING SHOT?
KASDAN: "There's nothing. There's no connection. You know, George is a better one to answer that question, but I never looked at it that seriously. We didn't work from that. He said, "God bless her, but she wasn't doing anything like I wanted it." She had written some great movies. But I don't think they were ever on the same page about Empire. I think George hired her because of her extraordinary history. But what George needs, and particularly in Star Wars, is someone who's going to do what he had in mind - make it happen."
"...with Empire, George had the whole story in his head. It was really a question of getting the script done, and getting Kersh in agreement. So they were very intense, highly adrenalized, fun sessions with George and Kersh, and then I would go away and write, and in two weeks we'd come back and look at the new draft. I wrote it really fast."
Kasdan based his draft (the 4th) on Lucas' 2nd and 3rd ones, while Brackett's work was based on his early story treatment and one in-person story conference. Big difference.
Stephen Haffner(owner of the press that printed Martian Quest: The Early Brackett) also read Brackett's draft:
Quote:
FWIW, Leigh Brackett turned in the first draft of TESB (her cover page
reads: STAR WARS SEQUEL) in February of 1978 before dying of cancer
weeks later on March 24th.
While she wrote her script from story notes and telephone interviews
with Lucas, none (I repeat NONE!) of her contributions were utilized in
subsequent drafts or the final script. I've read her script and
although I'm a big Brackett fan (in 2002 I published a 500-page book of
her earliest stories), her screenplay is pretty bad.
Lucas enjoyed working with Brackett and wanted her name on the film and he ensured that her estate would benefit from the finished product.
I've read a letter written by Richard C. Jones, then-attorney for Brackett's estate and he is effusive on how above-board and reputable
Lucas is.
Grist for the mill,
Stephen Haffner
Big Poobah
Quote:
I've just finished reading the Salon.com article on Lucas' material, and insofar as Leigh Brackett is concerned my response is "bullcrap." Mega-super bullcrap.
I've read the first draft screenplay that Leigh Brackett wrote (called
alternately STAR WARS II and STAR WARS SEQUEL) and while it adheres to the three-chapter outline (Ice Planet-Swamp Planet/Asteroid Belt-Cloud Planet) given to LB by Lucas in 1978 (supplemented by lengthy telephone interviews between GL & LB with Lucas role-playing several different characters) the draft that she turned in is near-unfilmable and at variance with what was ultimately done in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.
I think EMPIRE is a great film and I obviously admire LB's work, but her
STAR WARS II script, while it has more than a few wonderful moments, is fatally flawed. For one thing, the "Force" is much more prominent, and
is essentially an additional character in the film, giving the screenplay an over-abundance of supernatural and spiritual overtones. Also, no sod is sewn over the "Vader is Luke's father" scheme. Nothing. Brackett's trademark rapid-fire dialogue is present between Han-Luke-Leia, but the romance is missing, and Han Solo exists in the script only to pilot the Millennium Falcon and tell everybody that he has to meet up with an old mentor before paying off Jabba the Hut (sic). In fact, Han never gets to meet this dutch-uncle, and leaves the film at the end to do so. No Boba Fett. No carbonite freezing chamber. A proto-Lando is present, and a proto-Yoda (called Minch in the script) guides Luke through his Jedi training. The asteroid chase is brief, and Han, Chewie, Leia and 3PO simply rendezvous with the Rebel fleet. A second draft using Brackett's material could have been attempted, but Lucas gave the same three-chapter synopsis to Kasdan and the result is the final film.
Sorry for the rant, but in the past few years I've heard any number of
people tell me how MUCH BETTER "EMPIRE" would be if Lucas had used the original Brackett screenplay. The reality is that only a few people
have read that screenplay (my guess is less than 15 or so) and EMPIRE is a better film for not using it. It is to Lucas' credit that he enjoyed
working with Leigh enough that he let Kasdan know the he could only get co-screenplay credit as Lucas wanted Brackett's estate to benefit from EMPIRE's success--if any. Fortunately, the executors of the
Hamilton-Brackett estate confirm that Lucas and his people have more
than done right, financially, by Leigh's contribution, and her name is
on the film to this day. Although, I'm told that EMPIRE was pothumously dedicated to LB, but none of the tapes ('80 or re-worked '97 editions) I
own have any such note.
Stephen Haffner
HAFFNER PRESS
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=234109&page=21
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Edited by - Mark Hawley on 06/02/2006 1:41:32 PM |
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Triviachamp
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
254 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 3:06:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
the first film became a huge hit, it pretty much invented the movie-related spin-off business (I don’t recall any Jaws action figures, Sound of Music Colorform sets, or Godfather-themed Monopoly games). Disney may have done some of that, but nowhere near the same scale as Star Wars. (Each film since has upped the ante with new sets, vehicles, characters, and differently-costumed versions of the main characters--and resultant toy versions of same).
Well I do know that Ben-Hur had plenty of Merchandise. And I recall reading that the last film to have a major merchandising campaign was Doctor Dolittle in 1967. However it tanked and almost bankrupted Twentieth Century-Fox, which is why they didn't care that Lucas bought the merchandising rights. |
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RVHorror
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 5:51:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Triviachamp
Well I do know that Ben-Hur had plenty of Merchandise. And I recall reading that the last film to have a major merchandising campaign was Doctor Dolittle in 1967. However it tanked and almost bankrupted Twentieth Century-Fox, which is why they didn't care that Lucas bought the merchandising rights.
I did not know that. What kind of merchandise was released for Ben Hur? I'm assuming it wasn't toys, but I honestly can't imagine what it was. |
Edited by - RVHorror on 06/02/2006 5:52:14 PM |
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Kooshmeister
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 7:52:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Hawley
The character sounds different, looks different and is given a different official name (at least in the Visual Dictionary) so how is Lucas himself trying to convince anyone it's the same character? Just because Rune appears in ROTS after sitting out AOTC?
I wish I knew. I just know that Leland Chee, "Keeper of the Holocron," says it's Rune Haako. Nearest I can figure, Lucas is concerned with original intent; it was intended to be Rune so he wants him to be Rune, despite circumstances beyond his control (the loss of Rune's mask) making it impossible for it to be that character.
There's no logic to it whatsoever. He's also called Gilramos Libkath in the book Boba Fett: Hunted (which uses a picture of the AOTC Neimoidian on the cover). All other books and sources either call the character Rune Haako, Lott Dod, or, in an apparent attempt at neutrality, just an aide. As far I'm concerned, though, there's no way it can be either Rune or Lott, so I've always called him Gilramos and will continue to do so.
Speaking of which, recently it was revealed that the Captain Antilles seen in ROTS is meant to be the same Antilles as the one at the beginning of ANH, despite not aging a day and losing his facial scars. Common theory up till now held that the Antilles in ANH was the son of the Antilles in ROTS, but LucasFilm and its inane decisions changed all that. |
Edited by - Kooshmeister on 06/02/2006 7:59:01 PM |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2006 : 11:41:42 PM
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MikeC, I like your theory about the Death Star. That makes a lot of sense.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!! |
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Triviachamp
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
254 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2006 : 12:15:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RVHorror
quote:
Originally posted by Triviachamp
Well I do know that Ben-Hur had plenty of Merchandise. And I recall reading that the last film to have a major merchandising campaign was Doctor Dolittle in 1967. However it tanked and almost bankrupted Twentieth Century-Fox, which is why they didn't care that Lucas bought the merchandising rights.
I did not know that. What kind of merchandise was released for Ben Hur? I'm assuming it wasn't toys, but I honestly can't imagine what it was.
Oh there were toys alright, "a hundred kinds" I read. Ever hear of the Ben-Her Ben-His towels? |
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John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2006 : 08:47:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
And why did Anakin build his mom a protocol droid anyway?
That when I realized how sloppy the first movie was. We've got a sumptuous Byzantine court on one planet and a hard-scrabble farm on another. So, the effete translator is from the farm and the tough little mechanic is from the court. Hello?
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We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
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jackspencerjr
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
262 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2006 : 7:59:33 PM
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Anakin building C3PO was the least of that movie's problems. The worst of it's problems was chocolate pie.
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BrainFromArous
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2006 : 12:18:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sardu
A little more rant- for me the biggest giveaway that the prequel backstory was little more than a general idea when Lucas made the first movie is Han's line (and that Death Star guy too) about the Jedi and the Force being basically some kind of ancient religion/mysticism that no modern person took seriously. According to the final storyline, the Jedi had been in full flower only, what, twenty years before?? Most people around at the time would have known that the Jedi were entirely real and powerful from actual experience. It would be like someone 20 years old in the 60's doubting the existence of Nazis. GL just never actually THOUGHT about it.
Coming soon-
Eraserhead: The Musical!!
Damn good catch!
Yes, indeed, nobody would be talking about Vader's force-fulness as a "sad devotion to that ancient religion" when the Jedi were a going concern just a generation ago. Why, the Death Star guy would've been there to see it himself - perhaps as a young officer in the Republic space navy.
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Boards don't hit back.
(Bruce Lee) |
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BrainFromArous
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2006 : 12:29:01 AM
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Ken and Andrew’s Rule of Plot Holes
This rule, formulated with the help of fellow Bad Movie aficionado Andrew Muchoney, stipulates that if a viewer is forced to construct (or attempt to construct) an elaborate framework of suppositions in order to cover over some hole in a film’s plot, then somebody on the production side of things hasn’t been doing their job.
We don't just read Jabootu; we live it.
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Boards don't hit back.
(Bruce Lee) |
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BrainFromArous
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
USA
102 Posts |
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