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brandywine
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
56 Posts |
 Posted - 12/30/2006 : 2:44:40 PM
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Well, I know very well what Ken, doesn't like.
For me (declaration of self-interest, I'm a lady)--
GOOD:
A Perfect Storm has a boat captainess (Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio), who, I think, should be in textbooks for how to portray women in nontraditional professions. Everyone acts as if it were a natural, pretty unnoteworthy occurrence. She is good friends with the men and doesn't act like she has anything to prove. She loves her job, but expresses some tender regret about its lonely nature.
And it's the very same thing (without the regret) in The Abyss with Lisa "One Night" Standing, (Kimberly Scott, the masculine-looking, black rigwoman). She's just unselfconsciously one of the gang, who respects and obeys the rigboss Ed Harris. She even backs down from a confrontation with the angry, crazy villain when he starts giving orders when Ed wisely tells to her to simply comply with the angry, crazy guy in this minor case so he doesn't get any angrier or crazier before they can do something about him.
BAD:
In A Perfect Storm however Diane Lane plays a fisherman's girlfriend, who like every wife/girlfriend in every cop/fireman/FBI movie yells at the hero for not spending a enough time at home and being in such a dangerous job, as if she didn't know this when they got to together. Anne Heche in Donnie Brascoe was the nadir of this. I hate these bitches.
In The Abyss however Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio (again) plays Ed Hariss' ex-wife and rig-designer as the infamous Empowered Womyn trying to make it in a Man's World. I hate these bitches. |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 5:58:33 PM
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Woman roles I didn't care for...
Sanaa Lethan as the lead protagonist in Alien vs. Predator. Yet another groaning "I am woman, hear me roar!" role. Sorry, but just the fact she was playing a supposedly grizzled, experienced arctic survival specialist just stretched credibility too far. Survivalist types tend not to look like Revlon Girls with perfect skin. And that she could hold her own against enemies that traditionally called for an Arnold-type was just kind of silly.
Well, Sigorney Weaver was more believeable...
Roles I did like...
All the women in The Descent. Good horror movie and the women conducted themselves as scared, yet competent and determined. They were adults, which is a refreshing change from horror movies targeted at teenage audiences.
Anne Archer as Dr. Caroline "Cathy" Ryan in Patriot Games. Playing a wife and mother, she portrayed the type of woman I wouldn't mind marrying at all. After the terrorist severely injure her and her daughter, she basically tells her husband to use his CIA contacts to find them and kill them.
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Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 12/30/2006 6:01:56 PM |
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John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 8:58:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
And that she could hold her own against enemies that traditionally called for an Arnold-type was just kind of silly.
I'm ort of mixed on this one. I sort of like the idea of putting someone in way over their head.
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We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
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Altair IV
Preeminent Apostolic Prelate of the Discipleship of Jabootu
Japan
110 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 12:39:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Carrier
And that she could hold her own against enemies that traditionally called for an Arnold-type was just kind of silly.
I'm ort of mixed on this one. I sort of like the idea of putting someone in way over their head.
I think the key point was in the "hold her own" part, meaning she isn't way in over her head, but strong and skilled enough to go face-to-face with the strongest of foes as if she were G.I. Jane or something.
Far better, in terms of drama and realism, is to throw a more average person in way over her head and have her prevail only through a combination of wits, skill and luck, as opposed to making her a female badass. That's what made Ripley and Sarah Conner such memorable protagonists in the first Alien and Terminator movies, after all. They only bacame badass after they'd already been through hell.
Perhaps best of all is to simply have the female protagonist be strong, skilled, and confident, yet still human. By which I mean she isn't a 28 year-old premier scientist+superb marksman+black belt+fashion model+perfect mother, but just someone who's professional and good at what she does. Oh, and give her a well rounded personality, with (realistic) flaws as well as virtues. Then put her in a conflict where she has to use the knowledge and resources she has to the fullest just to make it out alive. In short, she should be depicted in the same way that the best male characters are--believeably. |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 01:42:24 AM
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Ah, how could I have overlooked my all time least favorite female lead role in a movie?
Angelina Jolie in Tomb Raider.
I know I do the movie a diservice by even talking about it as if it worthy of being talked about.
Okay, yeah, she's hot. Let's get that out of the way pronto.
The problem I had with watching it was that I couldn't help comparing it and her to the other archaeology/adventure movies featuring a guy with a hat and bullwhip.
See, that other guy would get the absolute crap beat out of him in every movie. He literally went through a hell of torture, hand to hand combat with cartoonishly huge, mustachioed carnival strongmen, being dragged behind trucks, being shot in the arm and on and on.
But Lara Croft just keeps that cute smirk on her face as she outsmarts and outmanuevers hordes of ninja-like thugs without ever getting a scratch or a bruise. She's so invincible she can go to Siberia and just wear a tight-fitting t-shirt that I'm not about to really...complain about...too much.
It was just too cartoonish.
But then, American audiences would probably be uncomfortable seeing Jolie put through the kind of stuff Indy has to endure. The Hero Mythos requires that at some point he is captured and tortured by his enemies. That does not often apply to female heros, perhaps because the word "rape" is never very far over the horizon. People probably won't take their kids to see Mola Ram pour the Black Blood of Kardeth down Angelina Jolie's gullet after Sahib softens her up with a few closed-fist punches.
Since Tomb Raider was obviously meant to be a mindless comic-book style action flick, I suppose I should balance this out with a similiar movie with a female lead I did like.
Just off the top of my head, I'd say Catherine Zeta-Jones in the first Zorro movie. Not a bad job.
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Edited by - Citizen Carrier on 12/31/2006 01:47:51 AM |
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John Nowak
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1017 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 11:50:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Altair IV
I think the key point was in the "hold her own" part, meaning she isn't way in over her head, but strong and skilled enough to go face-to-face with the strongest of foes as if she were G.I. Jane or something.
Hard to say. I saw the "Director's Cut", not the theatrical release, and really didn't come away with the feeling the heroine was particularly deadly -- tough and smart, yes, but not that she was drop kicking Predators into oblivion.
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We've always been united in stupidity. That's why there is no hope. But, then again, when has that ever stopped us?
-- hbrennan |
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brandywine
Diocesan Ecclesiarch of the Sacred Order of Jabootu
56 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 12:52:13 PM
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General complaint: muscular, athletic women aren't considered traditionally attractive so the prettified warrioresses in art always look adsurdly physically incapable of whatever they're supposed to be doing. Take that nubile nymphet Keira Knightley as a Dark Age archer. It's just like post-Renaissance painters making Diana the Huntress a fleshy Venus.
Capable of stringing bow: [url]http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/S6.1.html[/url]
Not capable of stringing bow: [url]http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuva:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_005.jpg[/url] |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 1:15:51 PM
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So how do we feel about the new Starbuck and Boomer on Battlestar? *g* I think they have done a great job with Kara, keeping her tough and buff but fem as well. She's not turned into, say, every character Michelle Rodriguez has ever played. And she's managed to be generally attractive without being particularly glamorous.
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 12/31/2006 1:17:24 PM |
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Prankster
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Canada
727 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 5:29:10 PM
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Mmmm, nubile nymphets.
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Check out my online comics at [URL]http://www.phantasmictales.com[/URL]! |
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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 8:33:12 PM
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All the women in Alien are pretty good. As Brandi notes, they are part of the crew, and not treated differently. Ripley trying to keep the infected John Hurt out of the ship was a nice moment, since she was trying to do her job properly and didn't let him in because women are more nurturing. Virginia Cartwright was also just a grunt, like Kotto or Stanton. She's not particularly heroic, but then, neither are they.
Jim Camerson was terrific with such woman characters, as with Linda Hamilton in the Terminator films. By the second film, Sarah Connor has spent years paring away everything soft in herself, learning to deal with physical pain, familiarizing herself with fighting techniques and weapons and military tactics, among other outlaw skills.
Even then, and as much as she's made herself as fit as humanly possible, she doesn't seek to engage in direct face to face combat with much larger men. Instead, she employs ambush tactics and weapons against them. It's wince-inducing, but credible, that Sarah has gained this knowledge by hooking up with a series of no doubt scuzzy, militia-esque men, for the sole purpose of gaining such knowledge.
Claire Danes in Terminator 3, meanwhile, just instantly goes from being a veterarian to a heavy weapons wielding, utterly generic 120 pound asskicker. In fact, Danes is made more competent than John Connor, a gross misreading of how Cameron creates characters that are'strong women.' That Terminator 3 doesn't feature a super-competent John Connor literally raised by his mother to surpass herself in every way completely misses the sort of thinking that allowed Cameron to create Sarah in the first place.
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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Capt. Nemo
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
630 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 09:34:20 AM
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One tough girl role that I never had a problem with was the park ranger in Broken Arrow.
With the exception of the ill advised moment when she put a knife to Christian Slater's throat(that came off too pat), a woman working a beat in a state park didn't seem unreasonable. It wouldn't make people jaded or hard like say a beat in New York City.
On the other hand..
I didn't approve of Connie Nelson in the role of a F.B.I. agent in The Hunted. The movie is essentially a remake of First Blood. And they gave the Sheriff's role to Connie. And she played it like Tommy Lee Jones played Gerard in The Fugative or worse yet U.S. Marshals. The problem was I knew she was acting the part. I didn't believe for a second she was a take charge supercop. She also had a tendancy to grate on my nerves a bit and I took a perverse pleasure in seeing her character outsmarted.
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"Ward, the Beaver blew up the 7-11 again."
"I'll have a talk with him Dear" |
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Joliet Jake Blues
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
Australia
41 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2007 : 10:01:16 PM
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Zoe from Firefly/Serenity. Excellent - every inch a woman, and realistically tough.
"Age and guile beat youth, innocence and a bad haircut" - P.J. O'Rourke |
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Flangepart
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 10:20:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Joliet Jake Blues
Zoe from Firefly/Serenity. Excellent - every inch a woman, and realistically tough.
"Age and guile beat youth, innocence and a bad haircut" - P.J. O'Rourke
Good one.
Zoe did the "Guys" stuff, while her 'ol man was the "You fight , i fly type". Each knew what they were best at. I loved the relationship, and how he amused her.Concitering her combat back ground, i actualy think she needed some one who could make her laugh. Too bad Mal missed out on something like that.
Marvin the Paranoid Android to Buzz Lightyear "Too infinity and beyond-i've been there, its rubbish!"
"Hoody Hoo, i waste 'em with my cross bow!" Bob Herzog- KDOT
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 10:47:12 AM
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All the female characters in Firefly were good. Kaylee is a typical tomboy/greasemonkey type but she's characterized well enough that it really works. She has a fairly overt desire to be fem and flouncy even though she doesn't really know how to indulge it, and she can be very tough when put in a tight situation. And she's not afraid to indulge her sensual side...
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 7:16:39 PM
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I'm with CC on the cast of The Descent. I've said it before, but it bears repeatin': it's a horror movie with an all-female cast, and not one of them is a bimbo. They make foolish moves, and understandably so, but there's not an idiot among them.
Women who play, say, detectives in thrillers and such can cross the fine line between a traditionally feminine appearance and physical and mental toughness (or, simply, they can look hot and kick ass at the same time). Witness Silence of the Lambs. Women in a more action-oriented role generally can't do that. The physical demands of an action part would require that she look more androgynous, out of sheer necessity. Ripley in Aliens is a good example. Okay, you'll never mistake Sigourney Weaver for Sly Stallone, but she's clearly not supposed to be a Nubile Young Thing here.
I was going to make a point here, but I'm starting to ramble and it's been a helluva day. Can anyone tell me where I was going with this? *g* |
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AnnGora
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
252 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 11:32:24 AM
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Frankly, woman that I am, I think most females in movies today are not my ideas of a role model. I’m reaching back and selecting Maureen O’Hara when she was paired with John Wayne. (McClintock, The Quiet Man, etc.) She was independent, tough when she had to be, sassy, and gorgeous to boot. Essentially, she made John Wayne sexy and, as a result, she became his mirror image. His female doppelganger. They were the best screen combo, in my opinion.
She was bred in old Kentucky, but she's just a crumb up here. |
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