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Ken HPoJ
Supreme Potentate
USA
1530 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2006 : 7:45:15 PM
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I will agree that, due to a real crackdown on career criminals (much more of a factor in crime rates than gun ownership) starting under Guiliani, New York has seen a simply terrific decline in crime rates over the last decade, far outstripping other gun-restricting metropolises like Washington DC, LA, Detroit, Chicago, etc. I think New York now has about a third of the murders it did when Guiliani took office. Hell, due to his programs and efforts, even San Francisco has a higher murder rate than New York.
However, here's the thing: Something over 35 states, nearing 40, now allow citizens to apply for carry permits. That number has exploded in the last several years, and more are being added all the time. Soon only a handful of states, and a larger number of city governments in the remaining states, will try to restrict the right of citizens to own and carry guns.
The predictions we've heard from gun control advocates due to this fact is that murder and gun crimes rates would skyrocket. This has failed to happened. In fact, the general trend during the same period that more states have been liberalizing gun laws is to see crime rates dramatically fall, except in those towns known for horrible corrupt police departments (New Orleans, Detroit, Washington--probably the worse PD in the country, etc.).
Restricting the legal ownership of guns doesn't reduce crime. An increase in gun ownership amongst previously law abiding citizens definately does not correspond to an increase in violent crime rates. More aggressive prosecution and longer sentences for the small number of career violent criminals will, however. Again, hats off to Guiliani and everyone in New York that helped turn things around there.
By the way, everyone in Sweden owns a gun, as it's the law. (Universal conscription.) Their violent crimes rates are probably lower than anybody's.
PEGGY: I don't see how having a girl on the team would ruin it. Did a woman judge ruin the Supreme Court?
HANK: Yes, and that woman's name was Earl Warren.
--King of the Hill |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 8:12:13 PM
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Rather than blather for a whole page about it, I would just refer to the Gun Control episode of Penn & Teller's Bullsh!t. It's pretty much bang on AFAIC. (Pardon the pun *g*)
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
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Renfield
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 10:37:35 PM
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If you go after gun crime, as opposed to gun ownership, crime rates fall, sometimes dramatically. Not too surprising, really.
The situation in Sweden is also found somewhat in Switzerland (military-aged males), for the same reason.
Richard Donner's next production: Non-Lethal Taser. They end it with Mel getting "tasered" and liking it.
--Joe "Renfield" Meadows
HORROR-WOOD Webzine
http://www.horror-wood.com |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:08:43 PM
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I'm thinking just a re-tooling of "Lethal Weapon 2" would be in order. Except that instead of apartheid South Africa, Riggs and Murtaugh take on illegal goings on at the Israeli Consulate.
They could get Ben Kingsley to reprise his role as the Jewish kingpin "The Rabbi". Or maybe Mel Brooks in a rare "serious" role? No, no, no! ALBERT BROOKS! I WOULD WATCH THIS MOVIE! Get the right physical trainer and you could have a pretty good hand to hand final fight scene between Gibson and Albert Brooks. When Gibson manages to kill him in some clever way, he could quickly say, "Shalom!"
And the unforgettable scene where Murtaugh gets up from a chair too quickly and says, "Oy! I'm getting too old for 'dis verkakte stuff."
Riggs and Murtaugh blasting rogue Mossad agents with braided beards and yarmulkes and like in "Lethal Weapon 4" where they made fun of the Chinese "Uncle Benny" crime boss, they could make a bunch of "Jack Benny-esque" wisecracks about being cheap and greedy.
I'm telling you folks, solid gold! |
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Citizen Carrier
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
322 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 06:48:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville
quote:
Originally posted by Ken HPoJ
"The less firearms in their district, the easier their job should be."
Actually, that's not remotely true. The *more* guns are in the district, held in the hands of law-abiding citizens, the less crime there is.
If you say so... living in a country with both anti-gun laws and a quite low crime rate the only idea of having more guns in my community makes me feel paranoid.
To each their own, I guess.
BTW, thanks kdraut for the gun / armour info, that was quite interesting.
Countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, and to an extent Spain, are culturally and racially homogenous.
America isn't. That comes with it's own blessings and curses. Violent crime is one of the curses. The freedom to meet deadly force with equal deadly force is one of the blessings. Nowhere else in the world I would rather live, warts and all.
And the racial and cultural "oneness" of Europe is becoming a thing of the past too. The newest arrivals have shown a distinct desire to NOT assimilate Western culture. |
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Ericb
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
648 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 08:59:08 AM
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Switzerland and Spain each have at least 3 separate cultural groups within their borders, in the case of Spain two of them have automomy/independence movements (Catalonia and the Basque region)one of which is violent(the Basques).
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp |
Edited by - Ericb on 08/10/2006 09:00:25 AM |
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KurtVon
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 11:21:35 AM
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And while Spain does have slightly lower crime stats than America (depending on what you are looking at -- higher for robberies, lower for car theft, about the same for others) America has more than twice the report rate. That is, an American is twice as likely to *report* a crime as someone in Spain.
This may explain why statistics based on interviewing victims come up with vastly different results than statistics based on police reports.
Oh yeah, and it is legal to have guns in New York. People often get confused about that -- a gun on public property (like carried onto the subway) must be kept in a locked box, but you can have an apartment filled to the eaves with handguns and still be legal if the paperwork is good. I was just talking about that last night with a friend who owns several guns and lives in Manhattan.
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KurtVon
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 11:24:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renfield
If you go after gun crime, as opposed to gun ownership, crime rates fall, sometimes dramatically. Not too surprising, really.
Heh. Reminds me of a friend who insisted drug related crimes would drop if we just legalized all drugs.
I responded that murders would drop if we legalized killing people.
---
"The easy way to tell is monkeys have a tail and apes don't."
"What's the hard way?"
-- Actual conversation with my daughter
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Edited by - KurtVon on 08/10/2006 11:27:10 AM |
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Neville
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
Spain
1590 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 2:41:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ericb
Switzerland and Spain each have at least 3 separate cultural groups within their borders, in the case of Spain two of them have automomy/independence movements (Catalonia and the Basque region)one of which is violent(the Basques).
"I reserve the right to look as well as be boring." - Robert Fripp
Don't confuse politics with crime, not only it's inaccurate, it's addictive xD
Now seriously, among Spanish natives culture is quite homogeneous, give or take a second language, and Basque terrorism is not very active, so their crimes don't ammount much in the statistics.
We do have our share of house / car robberies (above European media, I believe), but most of them are done with the owners absent, so no weaons are used, and a big deal of spousal abouse related murders, in which knives and the like are the usual weapons. Firearm homicides are quite rare, but firearms are often used in bank robberies and in a recent wave of robbery / kidnapping incidents that were carried out by foreign criminal groups, who may have an easier access to firearms or may always use them in their actions. |
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Renfield
Minister of the Sacraments of Jabootu
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 3:05:02 PM
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[quote]Heh. Reminds me of a friend who insisted drug related crimes would drop if we just legalized all drugs.
I responded that murders would drop if we legalized killing people./quote]
Not sure what that means...the import of my post is that owning guns doesn't cause gun crimes, but using them to commit crimes does. Thus, emphasis on making a maximum effort against crimes where guns are involved and giving the culprits caught tough sentences is much more effective than more gun retrictions on law-abiding gun owners.
--Joe "Renfield" Meadows
HORROR-WOOD Webzine
http://www.horror-wood.com |
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KurtVon
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 3:56:31 PM
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Oh, sorry, I thought the point was people are trying to reduce guns to reduce gun-related crimes (which, of course, does work) but not trying to reduce crimes themselves. A process which just turns most of the gun related crimes into not gun-related crimes.
If a person is planning to kill someone, rob someone, or steal something using a gun, banning guns may keep them from doing it with a gun, but they will still do it.
Not to belabor the point, but the issue all three have in common is that they attack a symptom (use of guns in crime, drug-related arrests, "murders") without addressing the actual basic issue (violent crimes, drug abuse, people being killed).
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Edited by - KurtVon on 08/10/2006 4:26:53 PM |
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kdraut
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 4:00:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by KurtVon
quote:
Originally posted by Renfield
If you go after gun crime, as opposed to gun ownership, crime rates fall, sometimes dramatically. Not too surprising, really.
Heh. Reminds me of a friend who insisted drug related crimes would drop if we just legalized all drugs.
I responded that murders would drop if we legalized killing people.
Instead of harassing law-abiding gun owners, prosecute people who use guns while commiting crimes. The NRA supports Project Exile, which increases penalties for crimes commited with firearms.
My personal opinion? Repeal GCA '68 and NFA '34. Prosecuting someone for owning a shotgun with a 17.875" barrel is stupid. Go after the people who actually harm other people. Let full-auto, SBR, and supressors be a state-decided issue. The FOPA needs to be amended to eliminate the pre-'86/post-sample BS.
http://www.kdraut.com/photo |
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Greenhornet
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1791 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 5:16:13 PM
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The Gun control Act of 1968 was, interestingly enough, NOT ment to reduce crime, but to prevent a lot of forigne guns and ammunition from being imported into the US and compeating with our gun factories.
Some of the biggest supporters of the act were the gun makers.
Big points missed by 'Leathal weapon2':
"Diplomatic Immunity" does NOT mean that you can commit crimes and not get arrested. A diplomat can be arrested, but not brought to trial by the host country. He/she CAN be deported, recalled by his own country, restricted to the embasy, tried by his own country, demoted, fired, ect.
At one point in the movie, one of the cops says "Somebody declaired war!" and he was right! As representitives of a forigne power, the badguys had commited an ACT OF WAR.
"The Queen is testing poisons." CLEOPATRA, 1935 |
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BradH812
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
USA
1294 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 6:03:50 PM
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Greenhornet, that wasn't the only problem LW2 had, but it was the biggest, IMO. The fact was, at the end, Arjen Rudd was witnessed by a respected policeman gunning a cop down in cold blood. His diplomatic immunity wouldn't be worth crap; the South African government would throw him to the wolves rather than risk an international incident.
Which makes Murtaugh's shooting of Rudd an act of cold-blooded murder. |
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Sardu
Holy Cardinal and Five Star General of the Righteous Knighthood of Jabootu
1126 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 6:35:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Greenhornet
"Diplomatic Immunity" does NOT mean that you can commit crimes and not get arrested. A diplomat can be arrested, but not brought to trial by the host country. He/she CAN be deported, recalled by his own country, restricted to the embasy, tried by his own country, demoted, fired, ect.
That still works out great for Dr. Doom, though, because as the head authority of his country he isn't going to convict himself of anything.
What were we talking about??
"Meeting you makes me want to be a real noodle cook"
--Tampopo |
Edited by - Sardu on 08/10/2006 6:35:55 PM |
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